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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award

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CB77
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Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-20-2012 09:41
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(From the Seattle Times)

TORRANCE, Calif. — Lawyers for American Honda Motor Co. returned to court Thursday to try to overturn a highly publicized small claims court award to a woman who sued over the fuel economy of her hybrid Honda Civic.

Superior Court Judge Dudley W. Gray II was hearing witnesses from both sides as Honda sought to reverse a court commissioner's award of $9,867 to Heather Peters, who opted out of a class-action settlement designed to give some 200,000 owners between $100 and $200 each, plus a rebate if they buy a new Honda.

Peters said she might never have brought the case if it wasn't for the puny amount offered in the class-action suit.

"$200 and a coupon? That was worth fighting," she said.

Her success in small claims court has led some 1,700 other hybrid owners to follow her example.

Honda called as a key witness Karen Takahashi, service manager at Honda Hollywood, where Peters bought her car.

Takahashi testified she took a Honda hybrid out for a 115-mile test drive on freeways and streets and was able to achieve 53 to 55 mpg. She said she is a conservative driver and did not try to manipulate the car to achieve better mileage.

On cross-examination, Peters, who is a lawyer, showed photos of the dashboard of the car that was tested and pointed out that its battery was fully charged. Peters has said her battery failed early on, received a software update and never again was fully charged, leaving the car to run almost entirely on gasoline.

Peters called a former Honda analyst and technical writer, Jeffrey Holliday of Baltimore, who said he was tasked with testing Honda hybrids after repeated customer complaints about mileage. He testified he was never able to duplicate the promised 50 mpg listed in the brochure for the car.

"I'm an aggressive driver so I made an attempt to drive conservatively. It's a great car but I was not able to duplicate it," he said.

Peters' husband, Michael Cassadine, testified the car had performed well when he first met Peters in 2008, but it quickly deteriorated and a software update made it worse. He said that when they left the house Thursday the dashboard showed the car was getting 25 mpg.

Later in the day, Peters testified and presented figures she said showed Honda knew it had problems with the hybrid cars but continued to advertise them as a perfect solution to gas price problems and a way to help the environment.

She told a Honda lawyer that the situation with her car is getting worse and she now has trouble accelerating up hills.

The lawyer, Roy Brisbois, accused Peters of causing the problems by the way she drove the car. He said she previously had sportier cars and that when she bought her car to the dealer it had extreme wear on the outside of the tires.

Peters said she had been driving very conservatively.

Outside court, Peters said she had never expected to spend this much time on her small-claims action when she first went to court, but she said she's glad the entire issue is being aired.

"My purpose is to hold Honda accountable for false advertising and to raise awareness."

She said she did not expect that Honda would fight her so vigorously.

"This raises brand awareness with the public that instead of trying to make things right, they will fight consumers to the death," she said.

Brisbois declined to comment outside court, saying he would not say anything until after a decision is rendered.

The judge is expected to take the matter under submission Friday and issue a ruling later.

Peters' small-claims suit was a unique end run around the class-action process that she said offered too little to Honda owners and too much to lawyers. She urged Honda owners to take the small-claims route as she did.

Honda's appeal of the small-claims verdict is essentially a retrial. According to small-claims rules, it is the last chance for review of the case and cannot be appealed further.

Unlike the small-claims trial, Honda has legal representation, and Peters, who renewed her law license, is presenting new evidence she has discovered since she received her award. She testified in the first part of the hearing last Friday with lawyers for Honda questioning her.

A judge has valued the class-action settlement at $170 million. Attorneys for the plaintiffs have pegged the value between $87.5 million and $461.3 million, depending largely on how many people accept rebates of up to $1,500.

The judge approved more than $8 million in plaintiff attorneys' fees in his 43-page ruling.

NSXforever
Profile for NSXforever
Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-20-2012 10:51
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They should not call them hybrids, they are misleading people. Its an "assist' just like GM calls theirs an "assist". You cannot drive the car on electric power alone.

If they didn't call them hybrids people would not expect Prius like MPG.
P54
Profile for P54
Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-20-2012 15:51
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NSXforever wrote:
They should not call them hybrids, they are misleading people. Its an "assist' just like GM calls theirs an "assist". You cannot drive the car on electric power alone.

If they didn't call them hybrids people would not expect Prius like MPG.



Totally agree, Honda should call it iAssist, from the words IMA, just delete the M and they would have a trendy name. That would differentiate the cars from hybrid comparison and yet they could promote way better FE than regular cars. But as we all know, Honda never did any good in marketing.

Are you listening Honda!


lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-20-2012 16:35
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NSXforever wrote:
They should not call them hybrids, they are misleading people. Its an "assist' just like GM calls theirs an "assist". You cannot drive the car on electric power alone.

If they didn't call them hybrids people would not expect Prius like MPG.



You have no clue what you are talking about as usual. This case has nothing to do with the lady expecting "Prius" like MPG, if that was her reasoning then the case would have been immediately thrown out and she would have been told she should have bought a Prius instead.

This case has to do with her believing she was "misled" by Honda because she was not getting the "advertised" MPG, a software update that hurt her fuel economy, and her wanting to personally sue Honda so she would get more money over the much smaller class action settlement agreement. What she does not understand is that the fuel economy numbers are estimates depending on driving style, how the car is maintained, and other factors and are not guaranteed.


The definition of a hybrid power train is not just being able to drive on battery power alone either. Some hybrids can do that, some can't but they are still hybrids even if they can't move on battery power alone.

Hybrid means there are two or more power sources which move or assist in moving the vehicle which is what the IMA does. Their are several different types of hybrids. IMA does fall under the definition of a hybrid, the battery in the insight is helping move the vehicle and is helping it achieve much higher fuel economy then the IC engine alone could. The original Insight was a Parallel hybrid and the current Insight, civic are Mild Parallel. I am not a fan of IMA and they need something more advanced but it is a hybrid, helps fuel economy, and does not add a high cost to the vehicle like other hybrid power trains.


TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-20-2012 16:41
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P54 wrote:
NSXforever wrote:
They should not call them hybrids, they are misleading people. Its an "assist' just like GM calls theirs an "assist". You cannot drive the car on electric power alone.

If they didn't call them hybrids people would not expect Prius like MPG.



Totally agree, Honda should call it iAssist, from the words IMA, just delete the M and they would have a trendy name. That would differentiate the cars from hybrid comparison and yet they could promote way better FE than regular cars. But as we all know, Honda never did any good in marketing.

Are you listening Honda!





Err... it is a hybrid because is has both ELECTRIC and ICE...

You are introducing a new definition in saying that a hybrid must be capable of running on electric only. (which the 06 and later can actually do up to 10mph on light loads).

The current definitions here are:

(1) Mild Hybrid: The electric motor assists the ICE.
(2) Full Hybrid: The electric motor can run the car without the ICE.

Then you also have the notion of Plug In Hybrid, which could be either Mild or Full.

The issue here is that people simply have no clue the it's their personal style that affects their mileage, and in the case of a hybrid it does a affect it a lot more ( not perhaps in percentage but quite noticeable in absolute numbers) than an ICE powered car.

The next gen ED hybrid is a full hybrid... It's actually a part time:

(c) Series Hybrid... where the ICE can run as an generator to provide electricity to the electric motor.

Of course, it's also a Full Hybrid.

There....

What Honda ought to do is NOT SELL CARS to LAWYERS with a heavy foot. :-P

CarGuyLee
Profile for CarGuyLee
Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-20-2012 17:11
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I still think there is more to this than people having a heavy foot. Espeically when you consider there was a class action suit, meaning lots of people had this problem. If it was a heavy foot problem you would see it with the prius also.

I've mentioned before the two people I work with that both had the HCH, I think 1 was an 06, and one an 07 (not 100% on the years) they had about a 12+ mpg difference between the two. They are related so they even switched out the cars for a week to see if it was driving styles...no difference. When they would talk about it I thought the same thing... they are different drivers, one a 70+ year old man and one a 50+ year old woman, but switching made no difference. The one that had the 'bad' one sold it and bought a prius and they always get within 3 mpg of ratings.
NSXforever
Profile for NSXforever
Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-20-2012 23:05
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P54 wrote:
NSXforever wrote:
They should not call them hybrids, they are misleading people. Its an "assist' just like GM calls theirs an "assist". You cannot drive the car on electric power alone.

If they didn't call them hybrids people would not expect Prius like MPG.



Totally agree, Honda should call it iAssist, from the words IMA, just delete the M and they would have a trendy name. That would differentiate the cars from hybrid comparison and yet they could promote way better FE than regular cars. But as we all know, Honda never did any good in marketing.

Are you listening Honda!





Bingo.
DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-21-2012 00:24
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CarGuyLee wrote:
I still think there is more to this than people having a heavy foot. Espeically when you consider there was a class action suit, meaning lots of people had this problem. If it was a heavy foot problem you would see it with the prius also.

I've mentioned before the two people I work with that both had the HCH, I think 1 was an 06, and one an 07 (not 100% on the years) they had about a 12+ mpg difference between the two. They are related so they even switched out the cars for a week to see if it was driving styles...no difference. When they would talk about it I thought the same thing... they are different drivers, one a 70+ year old man and one a 50+ year old woman, but switching made no difference. The one that had the 'bad' one sold it and bought a prius and they always get within 3 mpg of ratings.



I agree 1000% with this. There has to be a variance with these cars for sure, because my HCH can be driven very lightly, cruise at 65-66 and no flooring it at all and the max I can get that way is 39-42 mpg highway. Is that terrible? No, but to get that I had to "game it" by resetting the meter at the start of the highway portion, and I was at cruise for 14 miles with zero braking. If I set cruise at 78 and have to go wide open a couple of times, I get 32-33 mpg all day long. I can go snap a pic of my trip meter right now and you'll see about 800 miles of pure commuting and a whopping 31 mpg on the meter.

Funny thing is...a few weeks back I decided to see how LOW I could get it. I literally stomped it off every light, floored it whenever I could, etc, set cruise at 80, and the worst I can get is 31 mpg combined.

Given that, I have just said screw it...why pay attention if it basically works out the same on an 80 mph commute no matter how I drive it now?

Another odd thing that I should have questioned was the Trip A meter when I bought the car...it was at around 21000 miles with an average of 34.1 MPG, but I just assumed the person did all highway or just simply never ever paid attention to the car, but now I have a feeling a 50 year old woman probably doesn't drive that spirited, especially in a hybrid.

Hondasrule
Profile for Hondasrule
Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2012 00:42
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DCR, does your HCH have low rolling resistance tires? My brother bought recently a preowned 2008 Civic Hybrid at a Honda dealer and is getting similar mileage as yours, but it came with regular tires which it's said to have a negative impact of 3 to 5 miles per gallon. I wonder if yours might be bugged down by the tires as well.

FiSH-Chan
Profile for FiSH-Chan
Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2012 02:24
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DCR wrote:
but now I have a feeling a 50 year old woman probably doesn't drive that spirited, especially in a hybrid.


Just to point out my father is 60, and he has a lead foot. It's like it's either full throttle or zero throttle to him. When he borrows my car, he always screws up my mileage and alyways gets it to below 10L/100 on just one trip or so.

But it's not like he drives fast, because he complains I drive too fast, he just doesn't drive more efficiently. Hybrids for people like him will never work well.
Powered by Honda
Profile for Powered by Honda
Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2012 02:40
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Hybrid means a hybrid drive train.

A hybrid vehicle is a vehicle that uses two or more distinct power sources to move the vehicle

These different sources hybridize and form a forward motion and allow the car to move.

Thats why FULL ELECTRIC cars are not hybrids they are electric cars.
A77
Profile for A77
Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2012 15:02
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The Insight at least will go faster than 10mph on pure electric, according to its power mode gauge. I'd have thought the HCH would be similar, just harder to tell when it is in pure electric. CRZ drivers should be able to pipe in and confirm what speed pure electric can maintain (I know its not for very far - under a mile?).
DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2012 17:56
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I haven't checked, but I am 99% sure the dealer put all-seasons on mine too.
HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2012 19:48
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NSXforever wrote:
They should not call them hybrids, they are misleading people. Its an "assist' just like GM calls theirs an "assist". You cannot drive the car on electric power alone.

If they didn't call them hybrids people would not expect Prius like MPG.


The definition of a "hybrid vehicle"; A hybrid vehicle is a vehicle that uses two or more distinct power sources to move the vehicle. i.e. an electric assist or an IC engine. You can drive the HCH on electric only, I do it every day on mine........when the MPG meter reads 100mpg and the assist meter has 1-5 white bars..........
HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2012 20:01
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TonyE wrote:
P54 wrote:
NSXforever wrote:
They should not call them hybrids, they are misleading people. Its an "assist' just like GM calls theirs an "assist". You cannot drive the car on electric power alone.

If they didn't call them hybrids people would not expect Prius like MPG.



Totally agree, Honda should call it iAssist, from the words IMA, just delete the M and they would have a trendy name. That would differentiate the cars from hybrid comparison and yet they could promote way better FE than regular cars. But as we all know, Honda never did any good in marketing.

Are you listening Honda!





Err... it is a hybrid because is has both ELECTRIC and ICE...

You are introducing a new definition in saying that a hybrid must be capable of running on electric only. (which the 06 and later can actually do up to 10mph on light loads).

The current definitions here are:

(1) Mild Hybrid: The electric motor assists the ICE.
(2) Full Hybrid: The electric motor can run the car without the ICE.

Then you also have the notion of Plug In Hybrid, which could be either Mild or Full.

The issue here is that people simply have no clue the it's their personal style that affects their mileage, and in the case of a hybrid it does a affect it a lot more ( not perhaps in percentage but quite noticeable in absolute numbers) than an ICE powered car.

The next gen ED hybrid is a full hybrid... It's actually a part time:

(c) Series Hybrid... where the ICE can run as an generator to provide electricity to the electric motor.

Of course, it's also a Full Hybrid.

There....

What Honda ought to do is NOT SELL CARS to LAWYERS with a heavy foot. :-P




As of right now, I have 556 miles on my car (HCH 2007) I am at 44.7MPG on the cars' meter, but it is 2mpg off, to the lower, so I really have 46.7MPG.......and I have one bar left on my tank, when that bar goes away, I drive it another 40 miles..........So I will get 600 miles from this 50/50 city highway tank......

Honda needs to summons her car back, allow ME to drive it for ONE TANK and all will be proven right or wrong........If I can't get over 40MPG from her car combined out of one tank in LA, then the car is broke...........P E R I O D!!!!!
HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2012 20:10
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CarGuyLee wrote:
I still think there is more to this than people having a heavy foot. Espeically when you consider there was a class action suit, meaning lots of people had this problem. If it was a heavy foot problem you would see it with the prius also.

I've mentioned before the two people I work with that both had the HCH, I think 1 was an 06, and one an 07 (not 100% on the years) they had about a 12+ mpg difference between the two. They are related so they even switched out the cars for a week to see if it was driving styles...no difference. When they would talk about it I thought the same thing... they are different drivers, one a 70+ year old man and one a 50+ year old woman, but switching made no difference. The one that had the 'bad' one sold it and bought a prius and they always get within 3 mpg of ratings.


A Prius is much more forgiving because of the Series/Parallel system it has.......The fact it can run easily it's 1st 3 to 6 mph on electric only helps immensely in the over all mpg, plus it has a much more powerful battery pack, then the civic.......So in stop and go traffic the civic loses a great amount of it's MPG over the Prius as to on the HWY the civic can catch up the MPG over the prius..........
DrWhiner
Profile for DrWhiner
Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-23-2012 12:19
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From TTAC:
Remember Heather Peters, the attorney who is suing Honda? Well, if a recent article by Automotive.com’s Jacob Brown is any guide, her lawsuit might be the equivalent of Honda’s IMA hybrid system: unpopular, mostly ignored, and unable to operate without serious help from outside forces. ...

Mr. Brown appears virtually alone among the automotive media in his willingness to genchi-genbutsu. Ironically, that’s a Honda catchphrase, meaning “go to the actual spot, see the actual situation”.

Jacob Brown reports:
Honda Civic Hybrid Appeals Lawsuit: “Comply to My 3 Conditions or I’ll Sue You”

“Comply to my three conditions, or I’ll sue you.”

That was Judge Dudley Gray II’s paraphrasing of a letter sent by Heather Peters to Honda’s customer service department on November 18 of last year. The letter spoke louder than any evidence previously submitted in the three-day hearing, an appeal by Honda against a $9,867 settlement she won in small claims court in January.

As explained in court Friday, Honda received the letter on November 22. Honda that stated Peters’ “demands” (the court’s word—not ours) and wasn’t able to respond to the letter until after Thanksgiving. By that point, Peters had begun preparing for her small claims suit that spiraled into her winning her January hearing. Honda appealed the decision, starting a new case that began last week with full access to Honda’s technical experts and lawyers.

“I think it’s reasonable for them to turn it over to their legal department,” Judge Gray concluded when Peters asked a customer relations manager why she was never contacted.

The Friday hearing debated damages, the purportedly diminished resale value of Peters’ Civic, and the fuel economy numbers a car like hers could achieve. Peters has said that she is averaging 29 mpg in a car rated almost twice that. But it came up Peters wouldn’t let her local Honda dealership test her car for fuel economy because Honda said it didn’t want her to post footage of it on her site before the appeals court date.

In the hearing, Peters claimed the Honda’s battery in its Integrated Motor Assist hybrid system would not hold a charge, dropping her fuel economy well below its factory-rated 50 mpg. Technical expert Neil Schmidt countered in testimony that, according to records from her Honda dealership, Peters’ car had never had service problems and that her tires showed excessive wear on their outside shoulders, a sign of aggressive driving. Peters said she was not a lead-foot driver, but Honda attorney Roy Brisbois introduced the fact that her last four cars were two BMW Z3 roadsters, a BMW X5, and a Mazda RX-8—none of which are exactly vehicles for the unsporting driver.


Read more: http://blogs.automotive.com/honda-civic-hybrid-appeals-lawsuit-comply-to-my-3-conditions-or-ill-sue-you-90801.html#ixzz1ssdihr4D

HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-23-2012 12:46
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DrWhiner wrote:
From TTAC:
Remember Heather Peters, the attorney who is suing Honda? Well, if a recent article by Automotive.com’s Jacob Brown is any guide, her lawsuit might be the equivalent of Honda’s IMA hybrid system: unpopular, mostly ignored, and unable to operate without serious help from outside forces. ...

Mr. Brown appears virtually alone among the automotive media in his willingness to genchi-genbutsu. Ironically, that’s a Honda catchphrase, meaning “go to the actual spot, see the actual situation”.

Jacob Brown reports:
Honda Civic Hybrid Appeals Lawsuit: “Comply to My 3 Conditions or I’ll Sue You”

“Comply to my three conditions, or I’ll sue you.”

That was Judge Dudley Gray II’s paraphrasing of a letter sent by Heather Peters to Honda’s customer service department on November 18 of last year. The letter spoke louder than any evidence previously submitted in the three-day hearing, an appeal by Honda against a $9,867 settlement she won in small claims court in January.

As explained in court Friday, Honda received the letter on November 22. Honda that stated Peters’ “demands” (the court’s word—not ours) and wasn’t able to respond to the letter until after Thanksgiving. By that point, Peters had begun preparing for her small claims suit that spiraled into her winning her January hearing. Honda appealed the decision, starting a new case that began last week with full access to Honda’s technical experts and lawyers.

“I think it’s reasonable for them to turn it over to their legal department,” Judge Gray concluded when Peters asked a customer relations manager why she was never contacted.

The Friday hearing debated damages, the purportedly diminished resale value of Peters’ Civic, and the fuel economy numbers a car like hers could achieve. Peters has said that she is averaging 29 mpg in a car rated almost twice that. But it came up Peters wouldn’t let her local Honda dealership test her car for fuel economy because Honda said it didn’t want her to post footage of it on her site before the appeals court date.

In the hearing, Peters claimed the Honda’s battery in its Integrated Motor Assist hybrid system would not hold a charge, dropping her fuel economy well below its factory-rated 50 mpg. Technical expert Neil Schmidt countered in testimony that, according to records from her Honda dealership, Peters’ car had never had service problems and that her tires showed excessive wear on their outside shoulders, a sign of aggressive driving. Peters said she was not a lead-foot driver, but Honda attorney Roy Brisbois introduced the fact that her last four cars were two BMW Z3 roadsters, a BMW X5, and a Mazda RX-8—none of which are exactly vehicles for the unsporting driver.


Read more: http://blogs.automotive.com/honda-civic-hybrid-appeals-lawsuit-comply-to-my-3-conditions-or-ill-sue-you-90801.html#ixzz1ssdihr4D



She WILL lose this case, they are going to chew her up and spit her out........this is a case where the corporation is 100% in the right and the customer is trying to make a name for her self...........As I have posted MANY times, I am in a COLD CLIMATE and I am averaging year round, over 43MPG, snow tires and all............I get FEW complaints and when I do, I always take the car, drive it for a few 100 miles and bring it back to them with 40+++ to their 30MPG and all the truth comes out then.........OH, I start it and let it run to heat it or cool it. I sit in my parking lot and talk on the cell phone.....BLAH, BLAH......

A lot of people don't even reset the trip meter every tank and go with the over all fuel economy........It's all BULL SHIT from a woman who can't admit she bought the wrong car, now she wants to get rid of it and go with another high end car and wants to use any excuse she can........
Varmint
Profile for Varmint
Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-23-2012 13:05
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A77 wrote:
The Insight at least will go faster than 10mph on pure electric, according to its power mode gauge. I'd have thought the HCH would be similar, just harder to tell when it is in pure electric. CRZ drivers should be able to pipe in and confirm what speed pure electric can maintain (I know its not for very far - under a mile?).

There is no purely electric mode for the CR-Z. You can fool Autostop into turning the engine off while coasting to a stop. (Anything less than 15 mph.) But the electric motor will not propel the car during that time.

One thing I think more owners should keep in mind is that the EPA highway cycle is not 100% highway. It includes stops, starts, and various patterns of acceleration. That could mean the car gets better mpg during steady state cruising at highway speeds, or it could do worse. Which way the car trends depends on a whole bunch of factors: aerodynamics being a big one.

I'll use my CR-Z as an example. I average 44 mpg. Yet, I hardly ever take the highway. For trips when I do get out on the open highway, I average between 40-42 mpg. During my daily commute, I take suburban streets. There are a few stretches where I'll drive for a mile or two without a stop. My top speed on these trips is ~45 mph. That's when I get my best mileage. The highway trips bring the average down.

Why am I doing better in "mixed conditions"? Because the expression "speed kills" applies to mpg as much as anything else. Here's a sample produced by a CR-Zer under controlled conditions.

• 45 mph - 58 mpg
• 50 mph - 53 mpg
• 55 mph - 49 mpg
• 60 mph - 46 mpg
• 65 mph - 43 mpg
• 70 mph - 38 mpg

All numbers represent steady state driving with no changes in acceleration. Again, that is nothing like the EPA testing.
TonyEX
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Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-23-2012 14:31
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HONDA AFVM wrote:

As of right now, I have 556 miles on my car (HCH 2007) I am at 44.7MPG on the cars' meter, but it is 2mpg off, to the lower, so I really have 46.7MPG.......and I have one bar left on my tank, when that bar goes away, I drive it another 40 miles..........So I will get 600 miles from this 50/50 city highway tank......

Honda needs to summons her car back, allow ME to drive it for ONE TANK and all will be proven right or wrong........If I can't get over 40MPG from her car combined out of one tank in LA, then the car is broke...........P E R I O D!!!!!



ok... so my current commute is... 3.25 miles if I go the short way... or 3.45 miles the long way.

It's somewhat hilly though and I have to deal with the inane traffic "experiment" that UCI is... what with all those traffic lights, stop signs and a significant population of grad students driving (slowly and not stopping at the aforementioned lights and stop signs) Corollas whose direct previous experience was on a bicycle in the PRC.

So... when I drive, I get about 30 mpg.

When my wife takes the car to work... she puts a round trip of 80 miles on the 405... she raises the mileage to 39 or so. She's not a patient driver.. the hybrid feels _very_ _slow_ to her... which means she's not going light on the gas pedal.

I've noticed that the built in gauge reads about 2 mpg too low...

So, that means that in UCI stop and go I get 32 mpg. With the AC on. Going up a few mild hills (aka Texan Mountains) and coasting on the other side.

My wife is getting around 43 mpg.

Now then, my car has the updated firmware and the new BS tires.

So, anyone who's getting worse mileage than us should definitely take their car to the dealer and have it looked at.


TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-23-2012 15:22
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Well.. it sounds like the Judge is going to reverse.

His comment states that he believes she was going to sue anyhow and her history shows that she drives the car in the most inefficient manner possible: short drives (less than 200 miles per week), in a very busy area of SoCal with lots of lights and traffic (The Westside/ South Bay) and -by her own admission- she likes sports cars.

Ding, Ding, Ding....

Now my question is.. at what point will AHM pull out from the agreement in the San Diego case and use its legal department... bring out the Feds, bring out the EPA, bring out the Energy Department for all I care... bring out Darrell Issa

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/11/29/darrell-issa-asks-15-automakers-if-higher-cafe-level-might-hurt/


Hell, bring out Ford, GM, Toyota too... that should be a slug fest.

Although I got a feeling that no soon had AHM posted the list of subpoenas the whole enchilada will be shut down by Obama...

This whole thing is a joke.
TonyEX
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Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-23-2012 17:08
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
NSXforever wrote:
They should not call them hybrids, they are misleading people. Its an "assist' just like GM calls theirs an "assist". You cannot drive the car on electric power alone.

If they didn't call them hybrids people would not expect Prius like MPG.


The definition of a "hybrid vehicle"; A hybrid vehicle is a vehicle that uses two or more distinct power sources to move the vehicle. i.e. an electric assist or an IC engine. You can drive the HCH on electric only, I do it every day on mine........when the MPG meter reads 100mpg and the assist meter has 1-5 white bars..........



I've never seen that.... I think I have a heavy foot.

OTOH, I love it when you hit the top of the hill at 80mph and immediately the MPG meter goes to 100 mpg!!! I've seen that go on for more than a quarter of a mile with the BS tires.

HONDA AFVM
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Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-23-2012 17:27
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TonyE wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
NSXforever wrote:
They should not call them hybrids, they are misleading people. Its an "assist' just like GM calls theirs an "assist". You cannot drive the car on electric power alone.

If they didn't call them hybrids people would not expect Prius like MPG.


The definition of a "hybrid vehicle"; A hybrid vehicle is a vehicle that uses two or more distinct power sources to move the vehicle. i.e. an electric assist or an IC engine. You can drive the HCH on electric only, I do it every day on mine........when the MPG meter reads 100mpg and the assist meter has 1-5 white bars..........



I've never seen that.... I think I have a heavy foot.

OTOH, I love it when you hit the top of the hill at 80mph and immediately the MPG meter goes to 100 mpg!!! I've seen that go on for more than a quarter of a mile with the BS tires.



Give it a bit of gas going down the hill or on a flat road when the meter foes to 100MPG, make sure you have at least 4 or more bars on the battery........and the car will hold it's speed.......I do it all the time on mine.........
FiSH-Chan
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Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-23-2012 21:32
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
Give it a bit of gas going down the hill or on a flat road when the meter foes to 100MPG, make sure you have at least 4 or more bars on the battery........and the car will hold it's speed.......I do it all the time on mine.........


Yup, I did that before, was messing around with my friend's HCH and was able to do it quite easily even on flat road and in city traffic (in city traffic won't be able to keep that for more than 1 or 2 second due to stop / go!). The only trick is you need to tap the pedal a bit to keep it from charging.
A77
Profile for A77
Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2012 01:52
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Varmint wrote:
A77 wrote:
The Insight at least will go faster than 10mph on pure electric, according to its power mode gauge. I'd have thought the HCH would be similar, just harder to tell when it is in pure electric. CRZ drivers should be able to pipe in and confirm what speed pure electric can maintain (I know its not for very far - under a mile?).

There is no purely electric mode for the CR-Z. You can fool Autostop into turning the engine off while coasting to a stop. (Anything less than 15 mph.) But the electric motor will not propel the car during that time.




Probably not making myself clear - I will try to take time out in our CRZ to test it but I got quite some way in the Insight on electirc only and don't see whyt the CRZ would be different. The ICE still runs of course - just no fuel going in. Confirmed here at least...

http://hybridcars.com/vehicle/honda-cr-z.html
Powered by Honda
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Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2012 13:34
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no body should really mess with Honda when it comes to FE...they shouldn't have lost in the first place.

I'm glad they appealed.
Varmint
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Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2012 13:43
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A77 wrote:
Probably not making myself clear - I will try to take time out in our CRZ to test it but I got quite some way in the Insight on electirc only and don't see whyt the CRZ would be different. The ICE still runs of course - just no fuel going in. Confirmed here at least...

http://hybridcars.com/vehicle/honda-cr-z.html


Sorry, my bad. I thought you were talking about the car being propelled by the electric motor alone.

You are correct. The CR-Z can close the valves and essentially shut down the engine. (It still spins, but no fuel is used.) When you see three or more bars on the charge meter, the CR-Z will flip into this mode. The electric motor is charging at this point, not discharging to propel the car.
CarGuyLee
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Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2012 16:45
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
CarGuyLee wrote:
I still think there is more to this than people having a heavy foot. Espeically when you consider there was a class action suit, meaning lots of people had this problem. If it was a heavy foot problem you would see it with the prius also.

I've mentioned before the two people I work with that both had the HCH, I think 1 was an 06, and one an 07 (not 100% on the years) they had about a 12+ mpg difference between the two. They are related so they even switched out the cars for a week to see if it was driving styles...no difference. When they would talk about it I thought the same thing... they are different drivers, one a 70+ year old man and one a 50+ year old woman, but switching made no difference. The one that had the 'bad' one sold it and bought a prius and they always get within 3 mpg of ratings.


A Prius is much more forgiving because of the Series/Parallel system it has.......The fact it can run easily it's 1st 3 to 6 mph on electric only helps immensely in the over all mpg, plus it has a much more powerful battery pack, then the civic.......So in stop and go traffic the civic loses a great amount of it's MPG over the Prius as to on the HWY the civic can catch up the MPG over the prius..........



That still doesn't explain the two drivers switching for a week and getting the same results. According to you anytime you drive someones car for 100 miles you get better MPG. In the case I am talking about that is exactly what happened with no result change.
hondaguy717
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Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2012 19:34
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Here is what I don't understand on this law suite. Has anyone checked the brochure from that model year??? I have it on PDF on my laptop because I am a product specialist for Honda and here is an excerpt from page 8 of the brochure: "Smart thinking meets smart styling in the Honda Civic Hybrid. Its sophisticated gasoline-electric powertrain helps you save plenty of money on fuel – with up to 45 mpg4 in highway driving. The air benefits from its status as an Advanced Technology Partial Zero-Emission Vehicle (AT-PZEV)5 – the most stringent emissions standard yet achieved by a gasoline-powered vehicle in the U.S. And all along, you get to enjoy
the Civic’s top-flight style, comfort and convenience. With interior amenities like automatic climate control, a powerful 6-speaker audio system, cruise control and power windows, mirrors and door locks, driving smart feels good inside"

So what is the problem?? Nowhere has it ever said in the brochure or on the sticker of the car that the Civic Hybrid ever was rated at 50 MPG.
superchg2
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Re: Honda appeal seeks to reverse hybrid owner's award    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2012 19:42
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hondaguy717 wrote:
Here is what I don't understand on this law suite. Has anyone checked the brochure from that model year??? I have it on PDF on my laptop because I am a product specialist for Honda and here is an excerpt from page 8 of the brochure: "Smart thinking meets smart styling in the Honda Civic Hybrid. Its sophisticated gasoline-electric powertrain helps you save plenty of money on fuel – with up to 45 mpg4 in highway driving. The air benefits from its status as an Advanced Technology Partial Zero-Emission Vehicle (AT-PZEV)5 – the most stringent emissions standard yet achieved by a gasoline-powered vehicle in the U.S. And all along, you get to enjoy
the Civic’s top-flight style, comfort and convenience. With interior amenities like automatic climate control, a powerful 6-speaker audio system, cruise control and power windows, mirrors and door locks, driving smart feels good inside"

So what is the problem?? Nowhere has it ever said in the brochure or on the sticker of the car that the Civic Hybrid ever was rated at 50 MPG.


Tell that to the judge.
 
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