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onetyme_sam
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
onetyme_sam wrote:
THATS WHAT I SAID! SCREW THE PRIUS AND ITS SUPERIOR FUEL ECONOMY AND HATCHBACK VERSATILITY AND MEDIOCRE INTERIOR. FOR ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHO COMMUTE AND DRIVE A PRIUS. I GOT 2 WORDS FOR YOU ALL.
PLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYEEEED OUT
I WANT A SEXY ACURA CIVIC. with nicer interior and exterior............than a honda civic |
The ILX may be based on the Civic platform, but it's fairly obvious that it is not the same car. The exterior and interior designs are vastly different, and the ILX has much more standard and optional content.
This is not a re-badge like the Canadian Acura CSX was. If you recall, the CSX had pretty much the same exterior and interior as the 8G USDM Civic, with some minor changes.
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still a civic. a nicer one at it. thats like saying a hs is not a nicer version of a corolla. its a nice hybrid corolla. its like saying the es isn't a nice version of a camry. same as back in the day the i30 wasn't a dolled up maxima. or a escalade isn't a dolled up yukon, or tahoe.
the video of the guy driving the ilx the 2.4 ilx on youtube will have the same face as joe smith test driving the 2.4 civic si when it first came out.
if honda could differentiate the civic to the ilx as they did to the civic and integra of yore, then maybe i can agree. this is a way for the boy racer to grow up and get a mature civic.
i am not living in canada so i do not care about the csx. but why dont you defend the fact that the csx looked better? jdm headlights and tailights and had to have different bumpers and truck lid and that justifies the price. and leather wasn't an option. honda can modify a car and make it look different, put different content in it but in the end its still a civic. people do it to their own cars all the time (make cars look different) and its still the same car, just may perform or look different.
although i do not fully agree with this car, it is a start. i can applaud acura for trying to start an entry level car but they gave up on it back in 2002. i think if honda continued the integra and not given up on it, they could have themselves a fantastic entry level car that would have had over 20 years of refinement and actually can say that its not a nicer civic. because i think most can agree that an integra was not a civic.
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onetyme_sam
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
This is a car aimed at the mainstream consumer, the vast majority of whom are not gearheads.
Jon Ikeda himself said this car was no "boy racer". It was NEVER intended to be a follow-on to the Integra or RSX. It is not reasonable to say the car is a failure because it doesn't appeal to the Integra/RSX crowd, when this was not ever in Acura's plan.
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Look at what i found on another topic ;D
Thank you neal for this information that you read.
http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1058130&news_item_id=1057733
PS: Was just reading through the ILX PowerPoint (ugh!) and see that the 2.4 is referred to as the "Sophisticated Pocket Rocket..."
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NealX
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^I pointed that out within the PP because it was in contrast to his specific statement.
Going through the presentation looking for specific references to the 2.4, below are all phases and points used:
Premium 2.4 6MT:
Sophisticated pocket rocket
-Style conscious and car enthusiast
-Performance, sophistication and prestige (Weighted Shift Knob, Contrast Seat Stitching, Aluminum Pedals)
2.4 LITER 6-SPEED MANUAL
Emotional
Performance
Sporty gauges
Red illumination
-Needle
-Tick marks
DESIGN FEATURES
Silver Stitching
Stainless-steel pedals
Manual transmission shift knob
17 inch alloy wheel
-Steering
-Door pad
-Door armrest
-Seats
-Console armrest
URBAN PERFORMANCE
2.4 L Performance
-Sporty Sound
-Rich and high-quality shift feel
2.4 L Powertrain - Engine
-DOHC i-VTEC with harmonic balancer
-High-quality gear shifting feel
-Powerful and Extended Acceleration Feel
-Tuning of shift stiffness value and knob weight
That's everything specific to the 2.4. Some atypical descriptors of "performance..."
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HondaFan1990
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Gen Y is a market no car company should ever go after IMHO, especially those of us getting out of college. I have two years left. I'm 21. I already have about 20 grand in debt I need to pay back, low compared to some of my friends. Acura is targeting this car towards Gen Y just making some money and want a premium car. The ILX is a nice up upgrade from the Civic, but it's not on my radar. Why? I have no interest in buying a new car, even when I get a good paying job. That would put me in more debt. Honestly, a new Civic wouldn't even be on my radar. A used one? Yes, of course.
Someone mentioned the Edmunds article they posted about Gen Y people. The article is spot on. This group has no money to buy cars for the most part. And we have no desire to buy a car when they're so damn expensive to maintain. I'd rather spend my money on something else. I had a car. Took all of my money. Sucked me dry. Now that it's sold, I actually have money and I actually have some peace of mind. Getting a new iPhone or iPad excites us because we can actually afford those things with the one time price. A car? That's an investment.....an expensive one.
This isn't to say I will never own a car again, it's just that right now I am in no rush to get one. This summer I'll be going to work on the bus or possibly walking/biking. A car would be very convenient, but I can't afford one right now. Hopefully Acura does well with the ILX, but targeting Gen Y wasn't the best idea. Should've just been people that want a cheaper way to get into the Acura brand.
And I in no way speak for all Gen Y. There are some people on campus that have Range Rover Evoques, Mercedes CL63 AMG, Audi A8's and M5's too. I speak for us poor college students.....LOL And no, I'm not making those up. Students own those cars. Evoque is gorgeous.....
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NealX
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^Good points. Acura is typically off by 10-15 years on their "targeted demographics."
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atomiclightbulb
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onetyme_sam wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
This is a car aimed at the mainstream consumer, the vast majority of whom are not gearheads.
Jon Ikeda himself said this car was no "boy racer". It was NEVER intended to be a follow-on to the Integra or RSX. It is not reasonable to say the car is a failure because it doesn't appeal to the Integra/RSX crowd, when this was not ever in Acura's plan.
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Look at what i found on another topic ;D
Thank you neal for this information that you read.
http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1058130&news_item_id=1057733
PS: Was just reading through the ILX PowerPoint (ugh!) and see that the 2.4 is referred to as the "Sophisticated Pocket Rocket..."
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I believe Acura estimates the purchase rate of the 2.4L at about 5% of sales. The vast majority of ILX production will be the 2.0L.
It is extremely clear that this car was developed primarily for the mainstream market (non-gear heads).
Is there a link to the copy of the PowerPoint? I'm not sure that "Pocket Rocket" though means that it is aimed at the enthusiast. A car can be fast in a straight line, but not be tuned to handle as well as a performance enthusiast wants. The fact that the 2.4L has the same suspension tuning as the hybrid and 2.0L (serious wtf), no Limited-Slip differential (WTF?! x2), and no Tech package option (another wtf) says to me that this is not a performance product. It actually looks like a product that is aimed at people like me, who want to drive a manual but don't really need top-end handling.
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Powered by Honda
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If it had the RLX "jewel eye" new acura trademark lights then people would be like wow thats a luxury car.
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integrator
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Ganplosive wrote:
Owe, arguably the ILX isn't a replacement Integra though. I feel like you already have the Si for cheap. fun, reliable, easy to maneuver that this car isn't meant to replace the Premium Integra. It's a new car geared at young working professionals
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Gan, you forget that the G3 Integra was geared at young working professionals... but the LS/GS volume business was overshadowed by the wonderful GSR and ITR.
Today's young professional's still have the same wants and needs. So Acura should have set out to build a 2013 Integra 4dr GS, no matter what they called it, and claimed it to be the spiritual successor. But that doesn't follow with Mendel's politicized point of view within the organization, and doing that would be an admission of failed policy.... and everything thats gotten him power, position, and compensation at AmHonda would be gone. That's when people get replaced. Its less about demographics... its more about internal machinery at HQ.
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NealX
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
onetyme_sam wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
This is a car aimed at the mainstream consumer, the vast majority of whom are not gearheads.
Jon Ikeda himself said this car was no "boy racer". It was NEVER intended to be a follow-on to the Integra or RSX. It is not reasonable to say the car is a failure because it doesn't appeal to the Integra/RSX crowd, when this was not ever in Acura's plan.
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Look at what i found on another topic ;D
Thank you neal for this information that you read.
http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1058130&news_item_id=1057733
PS: Was just reading through the ILX PowerPoint (ugh!) and see that the 2.4 is referred to as the "Sophisticated Pocket Rocket..."
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I believe Acura estimates the purchase rate of the 2.4L at about 5% of sales. The vast majority of ILX production will be the 2.0L.
It is extremely clear that this car was developed primarily for the mainstream market (non-gear heads).
Is there a link to the copy of the PowerPoint? I'm not sure that "Pocket Rocket" though means that it is aimed at the enthusiast. A car can be fast in a straight line, but not be tuned to handle as well as a performance enthusiast wants.
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I mentioned the "Sophisticated pocket rocket" in context with "enthusiast" only because the terms appear together on the same slide as written:
Sophisticated pocket rocket
-Style conscious and car enthusiast
-Performance, sophistication and prestige (Weighted Shift Knob, Contrast Seat Stitching, Aluminum Pedals)
But I chalk this up oversight to an editorial intern within the "marketing" department.
The PP was distributed in print form only.
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DrWhiner
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adrianchew wrote:
I don't see why they couldn't gear the K24 auto to produce 33/34 highway MPG...
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atomiclightbulb
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Neal wrote:I mentioned the "Sophisticated pocket rocket" in context with "enthusiast" only because the terms appear together on the same slide as written:
Sophisticated pocket rocket
-Style conscious and car enthusiast
-Performance, sophistication and prestige (Weighted Shift Knob, Contrast Seat Stitching, Aluminum Pedals) |
Ugh. When I read what is written on those slides, the only thing that comes to mind is "Poseur Tc driver looking for upgrade" :-(
It really is unbelievable that Acura marketing could be *that* out of touch with what makes a performance compact.
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onetyme_sam
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
onetyme_sam wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
This is a car aimed at the mainstream consumer, the vast majority of whom are not gearheads.
Jon Ikeda himself said this car was no "boy racer". It was NEVER intended to be a follow-on to the Integra or RSX. It is not reasonable to say the car is a failure because it doesn't appeal to the Integra/RSX crowd, when this was not ever in Acura's plan.
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Look at what i found on another topic ;D
Thank you neal for this information that you read.
http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1058130&news_item_id=1057733
PS: Was just reading through the ILX PowerPoint (ugh!) and see that the 2.4 is referred to as the "Sophisticated Pocket Rocket..."
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I believe Acura estimates the purchase rate of the 2.4L at about 5% of sales. The vast majority of ILX production will be the 2.0L.
It is extremely clear that this car was developed primarily for the mainstream market (non-gear heads).
Is there a link to the copy of the PowerPoint? I'm not sure that "Pocket Rocket" though means that it is aimed at the enthusiast. A car can be fast in a straight line, but not be tuned to handle as well as a performance enthusiast wants. The fact that the 2.4L has the same suspension tuning as the hybrid and 2.0L (serious wtf), no Limited-Slip differential (WTF?! x2), and no Tech package option (another wtf) says to me that this is not a performance product. It actually looks like a product that is aimed at people like me, who want to drive a manual but don't really need top-end handling.
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uhhhhhh. what is civic? lets face it, the base ilx is to the base civic as where the si is to the ilx 2.4. just like how the si isn't suppose to be the bread and butter of sales. so you trying to tell me what is suppose to be the majority of sales is not needed.
i was referencing to the powerpoint from someone else that saw it. i didnt think i was being vague like standard honda/acura marketing
as for the product aiming for people like you, that is good that honda can cater to you and women that love this car (obama is catering to women to get their votes right?). that is good that honda can cater to people who absolutely love the zdx and crosstour. but like again, in order for a company to survive, they need revenue.
the way you defend this car is like you are almost trying to convince yourself you like this because how defensive you get. thats fine. if i bought it for 32k and someone told me i bought a fancy civic i would be pissed and say "ITS NOT A CIVIC" but truth be told, its a fancy civic. the excution isn't as good as i think it should be.
i can hold your hand and show you how good marketing is done. good example, nissan z and infiniti g. compare those 2 items and look how price overlaps just right. toyota/lexus and vw/audi is a powerhouse and they can do what they damn well please and people will buy. acura needs to stick with competing with volvo, buick, and saab.
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atomiclightbulb
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onetyme_sam wrote:
uhhhhhh. what is civic? lets face it, the base ilx is to the base civic as where the si is to the ilx 2.4. just like how the si isn't suppose to be the bread and butter of sales. so you trying to tell me what is suppose to be the majority of sales is not needed. |
You misunderstand. What I am saying is that the car was designed with a bias towards the kind of customer who will buy the 2.0L version (highest volume). The 2.4L version appeals to a demographic that wants to drive a manual, but doesn't know or care about performance suspension tuning and limited-slip differentials.
| but like again, in order for a company to survive, they need revenue. |
This is exactly why the ILX exists. Volume seller = revenue generator. This isn't some crazy vehicle like the ZDX that nobody will buy.
| the way you defend this car is like you are almost trying to convince yourself you like this because how defensive you get. thats fine. if i bought it for 32k and someone told me i bought a fancy civic i would be pissed and say "ITS NOT A CIVIC" but truth be told, its a fancy civic. the excution isn't as good as i think it should be. |
That's a reflection of your thinking, not mine. Maybe you would be pissed if someone told you you bought a "fancy Civic". I would not care in the slightest. Maybe I'd take it as a compliment.
What you have to understand about me is that I don't give a shit about names or badges. What I respect is solid engineering and good design. If you want to, you can find my posts about the 9G Civic. I think it has very solid engineering in the platform, unibody, and powertrain. What I don't like is the interior materials, lack of storage spaces, and some aspects of the dash geometry.
| i can hold your hand and show you how good marketing is done. |
You're conflating product planning with marketing in your examples.
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Ganplosive
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integrator wrote:
Ganplosive wrote:
Owe, arguably the ILX isn't a replacement Integra though. I feel like you already have the Si for cheap. fun, reliable, easy to maneuver that this car isn't meant to replace the Premium Integra. It's a new car geared at young working professionals
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Gan, you forget that the G3 Integra was geared at young working professionals... but the LS/GS volume business was overshadowed by the wonderful GSR and ITR.
Today's young professional's still have the same wants and needs. So Acura should have set out to build a 2013 Integra 4dr GS, no matter what they called it, and claimed it to be the spiritual successor. But that doesn't follow with Mendel's politicized point of view within the organization, and doing that would be an admission of failed policy.... and everything thats gotten him power, position, and compensation at AmHonda would be gone. That's when people get replaced. Its less about demographics... its more about internal machinery at HQ.
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I definitely agree with that. But when Acura themselves are pointing at the 2.0 being the volume seller of over 80%, it's pretty clear what their strategy on this vehicle is. NOT defending their decisions, but pointing out maybe why they chose to fail on the 2.4 SO HARD
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adrianchew
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
It is extremely clear that this car was developed primarily for the mainstream market (non-gear heads).
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What they don't get is what the mainstream market wants. A tarted up Civic priced for perfection is a far harder sell than a tarted up Accord (ala the TSX) that's priced pretty reasonably.
First of all, they went after Gen Y, which aside from rich kids with parents who can afford to buy them anything they want (why buy an Acura when you can get an Audi?), are mostly poor and struggling. The product Acura produced, actually is semi appealing to a different demographic, single women, ages 30-50.
And then, the car is going to get cross-shopped, and once again, will lose, to a well equipped Accord. The next Accord is going to be chock full of tech too (more so than the ILX even). Sonota/Optimas will steal sales because they have sexy sheetmetal, more interior space, etc, and even 274hp if you want it.
Producing a small 4-door entry lux sedan is the kiss of death. Someone I know went from a Volvo S40 (listed competitor of the ILX) into an Optima recently. Like bringing a knife to a gunfight.
Americans are big, plus more so guys are big. Even if they're not fat, people can be really tall... a larger vehicle is always an easier mainstream sell. This is why they've essentially created a mini lux chick car (with the R20 ILX) that unfortunately will get cross shopped with bigger rides that come well equipped for the same price.
Oh and about the Scion Tc being a poseur ride, sure it is, but ultimately they sell well enough. Its also a lot more affordable and thus appealing to Gen Y. It gets them from point A to point B, in reasonably good style... and c'mon, you expect an iPod generation growing up with earbuds to complain much that its not an Acura ELS stereo? And the Tc would clean up on the R20 ILX if anyone really bothered to race both side by side.
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Colin
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adrianchew wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
It is extremely clear that this car was developed primarily for the mainstream market (non-gear heads).
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And then, the car is going to get cross-shopped, and once again, will lose, to a well equipped Accord. The next Accord is going to be chock full of tech too (more so than the ILX even). Sonota/Optimas will steal sales because they have sexy sheetmetal, more interior space, etc, and even 274hp if you want it.
Americans are big, plus more so guys are big. Even if they're not fat, people can be really tall... a larger vehicle is always an easier mainstream sell. This is why they've essentially created a mini lux chick car (with the R20 ILX) that unfortunately will get cross shopped with bigger rides that come well equipped for the same price.
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OMG, you mean girls buy cars? I had no idea!? Maybe they don't like larger cars? Maybe they want a nicely equipped option from a (somewhat) luxury nameplate (another American tendency). Even if YOU don't view it as a lux nameplate, it's still going to be relatively exclusive just by production volume alone. Maybe this is attractive to some?
So I have to ask, what about all the people that complained that the Accord is too big and bloated? What about all the people that complained that you have to get a big car to get the features?
Honestly, I get that you're not interested in this car, but I think it will find a market. They're only targeting 40K a year anyway. So yeah, the Optima and Accord are going to sell more. THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO SELL MORE!
And further, how will you quantify the cross shopping and the sales lost or gained? Word of mouth?
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Powered by Honda
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That is NO civic.
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adrianchew
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Colin wrote:
Honestly, I get that you're not interested in this car, but I think it will find a market. They're only targeting 40K a year anyway.
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They won't. Let's wait for the monthly sales numbers to come out, followed by the incentives. 40k a year is not as easy as you think... that requires 3k+ cars/month. Look at how Acura as a whole is doing. The ILX would have to match/outdo the much better priced TSX.
Remember the next gen Accord is going to shrink a little too. The TSX is right sized, this is the car they need to stake the future on, not the overpriced, underpowered ILX.
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atomiclightbulb
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adrianchew wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
It is extremely clear that this car was developed primarily for the mainstream market (non-gear heads).
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First of all, they went after Gen Y, which aside from rich kids with parents who can afford to buy them anything they want (why buy an Acura when you can get an Audi?), are mostly poor and struggling. The product Acura produced, actually is semi appealing to a different demographic, single women, ages 30-50. |
Colin makes a few good points, but I have a few things to say about the Gen Y marketing and appeal to women.
Gen Y is a fairly large range, starting approximately 1982 (the people who basically became adults in 2000, hence the term "Millennial"). The oldest of Gen Y are in their late 20's and some are turning 30 this year.
Many are struggling. But there are others, particularly those with advanced degrees and professional careers, that have the disposable income to buy something like the ILX. Think doctors, engineers of all kinds, bankers, etc. who are maybe a couple years into their career. Maybe they want something nicer than the Corolla or Civic that they've been driving for years, but balk at spending for a Bimmer.
Where women are concerned, as Colin pointed out, they do buy cars. In the mid to late-2000's, women outnumbered men on college campuses (approximately 60% to 40% I believe), and that is going to start showing up vastly increased purchasing power of women over the next 10 years. Already, women on average earn more money than men in some urban areas. Acura is going to want to sell automobiles to people with purchasing power. I don't know if the ILX was deliberately designed to appeal to women, but if women end up buying these in droves, I think Acura will profit very well.
Colin pretty much summed up how I feel about Accord and its competitors. Too big, too heavy. If I wanted a fatass car I would buy a Toyota Avalon. The constant up-sizing of everything from Accord to Mazda6 has made the mid-size segment pretty unappealing for myself and others. While I am not impressed with the ILX engine choices, Earth Dreams engines are in the future. It is good that Acura offers an alternative for those who don't want one of the current models that have grown increasingly big and heavy over the years. I feel similarly about the Subaru BRZ/Scion FR-S. They are something for the sports car buyer who doesn't want the weight and bulk of a Mustang or Nissan Z.
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HONDA AFVM
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Grace141 wrote:
The 1990 Civic Si stickered right at $12k whereas the Integra GS was at $16k or so. Didn't stop me from buying the Integra. If the ILX 2.0 base was 133% of the MSRP of the Civic EX sedan it would list at $27,533. I suppose anyone buying a Civic that is more expensive than the DX is also being fleeced.
Has anyone here test driven both the Civic EX sedan and the ILX 2.0? I've driven the Civic and thought it was nice.
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I have one real comfort complaint about the 2012 Civic.......I drive a 2007 Hybrid, same all the way to 2011 as you all know, but the arm rest on the 2012 is ROCK HARD, as it extends out I rest my left knee on it as I drive and it is SO UNCOMFORTABLE it's hard to drive..........My 07, not a problem.......Plus there is no "Dead peddle" to rest my foot on.......
Other wise, it is OK...........The ILX would be a step up by far and I could see people paying the extra money, Powered by Honda hit all the points spot on with his post...........
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CarmB
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adrianchew wrote:
CarmB wrote:
Let's not forget that fuel prices are steadily climbing and it's obvious they will continue to climb. |
Incorrect. Prices have pretty much peaked for the year and is headed down now. $5/gal gasoline is not happening. Prices may be higher now but people have gotten to $3-4 gas, it is no longer the shock it once was.
The whole R20 being more gas efficient... if it doesn't hit 40 mpg, its missed the mark. I suspect this whole notion of efficiency is something concocted up by management that has no clue of reality... and Honda constantly playing the CAFE games and wanting to have one of the highest fleet averages if not the highest out there.
People have gone back to buying pretty fuel efficient vehicles in sizes they actually want, so any sedan/SUV that can pass 30 mpg highway does well enough. The greenies will buy the highest rated hybrids out there ie. the Prius and CT keeps on selling. Colleague replaced a 3rd gen TL with a CT200h... did he look at the Insight/Civic hybrid/etc first? Nope. IMA is pathetic and just can't compete... the ILX hybrid is rather underpowered even when compared with a Prius/CT.
Plus if they were really serious, offer up a manual R20. Its actually rather easy to get 35 mpg highway in the K24 Si... 70 mph highway, air-conditioning, just relaxed cruising. Bigger engine doesn't struggle at low loads. 28 mpg in mixed driving is easy too (again, if you drive a manual you can easily coast/anticipate stops, which increases fuel economy). 22-23 mpg just all city and mashing the gas whenever you like. Hardly bad real world MPG actually with the K24/6MT in a lighter car (the one thing that IMO has held the TSX back, it needed less weight or just a bit more power, and the LSD).
True with enough mods, you could get a TSX pretty nice, but from the factory its never been given enough power. Sure Acura can't compete with BMW directly, but with a car in the right size (TL is a whale) with decent enough power to be attractive to an "aspirational" buyer when compared to the 328, should have been a priority.
Which is why I keep saying the K24 would be a better choice for the ILX, its going to drive more premium in a light sedan than then R20 that's going to drive more Civic-like! And the K24/6MT just needed the LSD/tech package as options, plus a proper tailpipe. I don't see why they couldn't gear the K24 auto to produce 33/34 highway MPG... the R20 choice to me is entirely about cost savings ie. maximizing profits, but in a penny wise, pound foolish way (when they have to start cutting prices/discounting/incentives to move the ILX). And of course, the Honda obsession with ultimate green and CAFE games.
But then again, if they want to keep the TSX, they probably had to keep the ILX a bit lower down the food chain... here's where we get to why the choice of another 4-door sedan is wrong to begin with. A coupe/hatch appeals to the younger crowd they want to appeal to (no family obligations/etc to worry about).
Honda has always had a history with producing good hatches... that would have removed the Civic stigma too, since the Civic has a coupe. Speaking of hot hatch, we're back to the Integra again!
You just have to wonder how badly the management doesn't get it.
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It is inevitable that the price of fuel will trend upwards for the foreseeable future. The occasional dip means nothing. Here in Canada. We've been paying roughly $1.30 a liter for most of the spring. That translates to $4.92 per US gallon. I've had to pay as muh as $1.34 per liter. That's $5.07 a gallon. Word is that this summer we can expect around $1.40 a liter or $5.30 a gallon. As far as I'm concerned anyone who doesn't assume we'll be approaching $7 a gallon within the next five years is a darned fool and deserves what he or she gets as a result. If you make so much money that it doesn't matter and/or you don't mind that so much of your money goes into an unnecessarily wasteful vehicle, then by all means buy more car than you need. Yet don't expect sympathy when complaining about the high cost of fuel as if no one could have seen it coming.
My next car I will very much concern myself with fuel consumption and I believe I will be in the majority. I put thinking we're going to see fuel costs drop on a par with believing global warming is not a reality.
By the way, from what I've seen the automotive press likes the ILX, one reviewer describing it as more baby BMW than rebadged Civic. Honda is using Honda technology in this car. It's what I would expect Honda to do. It doesn't mean this car is merely a rebadged Civic. Unique sheet metal, unique interior, changes to the suspension, more chassis rigidity, and on and on. That Honda is using some already established technology is so inevitable that it seems to me some are merely looking for an excuse to whine about Honda not offering an M series competitor for Accord pricing.
Considering the volumes we're talking about, if Honda were to develop a unique car in every respect, i.e. develop a distinct platform borrowing nothing from another product line, the pricing would be so high that the car would be doomed from the start. For the ILX to be priced at least as high as the TSX and perhaps even higher, seriously, never could have been justified.
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Powered by Honda
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Well said CarmB!
Except I don't think 7dollars per gallon will hit in the next 5 yrs...maybe 10 yrs. Things move slower than that in usa to give people time to adapt.
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Ganplosive
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adrianchew wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
It is extremely clear that this car was developed primarily for the mainstream market (non-gear heads).
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What they don't get is what the mainstream market wants. A tarted up Civic priced for perfection is a far harder sell than a tarted up Accord (ala the TSX) that's priced pretty reasonably.
First of all, they went after Gen Y, which aside from rich kids with parents who can afford to buy them anything they want (why buy an Acura when you can get an Audi?), are mostly poor and struggling. The product Acura produced, actually is semi appealing to a different demographic, single women, ages 30-50.
And then, the car is going to get cross-shopped, and once again, will lose, to a well equipped Accord. The next Accord is going to be chock full of tech too (more so than the ILX even). Sonota/Optimas will steal sales because they have sexy sheetmetal, more interior space, etc, and even 274hp if you want it.
Producing a small 4-door entry lux sedan is the kiss of death. Someone I know went from a Volvo S40 (listed competitor of the ILX) into an Optima recently. Like bringing a knife to a gunfight.
Americans are big, plus more so guys are big. Even if they're not fat, people can be really tall... a larger vehicle is always an easier mainstream sell. This is why they've essentially created a mini lux chick car (with the R20 ILX) that unfortunately will get cross shopped with bigger rides that come well equipped for the same price.
Oh and about the Scion Tc being a poseur ride, sure it is, but ultimately they sell well enough. Its also a lot more affordable and thus appealing to Gen Y. It gets them from point A to point B, in reasonably good style... and c'mon, you expect an iPod generation growing up with earbuds to complain much that its not an Acura ELS stereo? And the Tc would clean up on the R20 ILX if anyone really bothered to race both side by side.
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Going by your logic, why did the 1g TSX ever fly off of dealer lots?
You're also making a pretty big assumption that all college grads are poor. Plenty of my friends ended up picking up a TSX after they graduated and are working now, taking advantage of Acura's graduate program. They love the TSX, but had the ILX been available many of them would've actually opted for this car instead. Smaller, more efficient, better styling (according to them).
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Great_Tubimi
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Powered by Honda wrote:
That is NO civic.
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In spirit, that's definitely a Civic.
If this car happened to be labeled honda with an "H" badge on a regular grille, you wouldn't be moved by it. It would receive acknowledgement for being a nice-looking civic with a more traditional design (on the front end, at least).
Once you put your foot to the pedal, you'd KNOW you're in a Civic. Maybe I need a refresh on what man-maximum, machine minimum was supposed to mean. It looks like everything is predicated on driving distractions instead of driving experience.
Smartphones make options like Pandora, Navigation, and Zagat obsolete. At this point, automakers should be designing docking stations for smartphones. The benefit is that they could lower texting while driving with that setup. Gen Y knows what technology they want, but they also know how to find it cheaply. Beyond the techno-junk, this is a Civic in a suit, the Acura EL reborn, a CSX as seen on Nip/Tuck.
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fatbloke
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hondacura wrote:
adrianchew wrote:
Seriously, if anyone here really thinks the ILX is worth anywhere near what they're asking for it, then just go out and buy one. At MSRP.
I bet all the blind legion of Honda/Acura defenders here aren't going to bite on the ILX, proving it is totally a flop.
The TSX is SO much better value for $$$, and the new RDX is totally spot on. This ILX, you'll see $3-4k off MSRP before the end of the year plus cheap financing.
Anyone that buys the 2.0 or 1.5 ILX is totally getting fleeced!
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People bought the Civic Mugen and it was priced 29K.
TSX is higher in price cause it is built in Europe and shipped over. Do your research.
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I think you should do more research!! So where's the TSX built in Europe?
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atomiclightbulb
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A big problem at ToV is a number of people who claim to know what I and other members are thinking.
Examples below:
onetyme_sam wrote:
the way you defend this car is like you are almost trying to convince yourself you like this because how defensive you get. |
Great_Tubimi wrote:
If this car happened to be labeled honda with an "H" badge on a regular grille, you wouldn't be moved by it. |
Do people seriously believe they know what goes on in my mind? Are people trolling or just stupid?
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adrianchew
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Ganplosive wrote:
Going by your logic, why did the 1g TSX ever fly off of dealer lots?
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Price/performance. Gotta remember that 1g TSX came out at a time when the competition had far less engine output, and while it was never super fast, the TSX had decent enough acceleration. Plus it was based on the Euro Accord and had Accord underpinnings. K24 with good HP and torque that made the driving experience worthwhile.
The R20/auto is coming out with TSX-like pricing, with a WEAK WIMPY Civic-like engine, no double wishbones, sure it has some fancy shocks, but it ain't gonna handle like the 1st gen TSX, just rides smoother... the 1g TSX had the fun to drive factor. The R20/auto? Looking by reviews, its a comfy ride but not quick... if you ask me, it sounds more like a Corolla than a Civic of old even, a Corolla with a close to Lexus-like ride quality.
The K24/auto will make a real difference here. But it would start looking really silly, I mean, ILX, TSX, same engine?! Which is why the lineup is too busy. Should have just made a new TSX a bit smaller, a new TL a bit smaller, and shrink the RLX a bit too. 3 sedans is plenty. Introduce a small coupe/hatch as the starter, and make it sporty!
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S600=Dream
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I remember how much everyone loved/loves the Integra.
Waitasec, wasn't that an Overpriced Civic as well?!
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atomiclightbulb
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
I have one real comfort complaint about the 2012 Civic.......I drive a 2007 Hybrid, same all the way to 2011 as you all know, but the arm rest on the 2012 is ROCK HARD, as it extends out I rest my left knee on it as I drive and it is SO UNCOMFORTABLE it's hard to drive..........My 07, not a problem.......Plus there is no "Dead peddle" to rest my foot on.......
Other wise, it is OK...........The ILX would be a step up by far and I could see people paying the extra money, Powered by Honda hit all the points spot on with his post........... |
Similar issue for me on the 9G Civic EX sedan I test drove. The arm rest felt like it had no padding whatsoever, and it was placed too low. As an armrest I felt it was useless.
By comparison, the 8G Civic Si sedan had a nicely padded alcantara armrest that was at just the right height.
I can't tell from the interior photos of the ILX how padded the armrest is, but I hope it's better than the Civic.
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Great_Tubimi
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
A big problem at ToV is a number of people who claim to know what I and other members are thinking.
Examples below:
onetyme_sam wrote:
the way you defend this car is like you are almost trying to convince yourself you like this because how defensive you get. |
Great_Tubimi wrote:
If this car happened to be labeled honda with an "H" badge on a regular grille, you wouldn't be moved by it. |
Do people seriously believe they know what goes on in my mind? Are people trolling or just stupid?
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Beautiful. Steer the discussion to people's use of the word "you." You used the word "people" where you could have used the word "you." I used the word "you" where I could have used the word "people." The sentiment of either message remains the same.
Now I can see how a few bells and whistles can keep you from realizing how close the ILX is to a Civic.
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