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TOV Forums > Civic > > Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic

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hondadude
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Re: 2013 Civic to receive substantial changes    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-05-2012 22:06
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Automotive News will only let you view 2 stories per visit if you're not a subscriber. Either clear your cookies or simply go to autonews.com and click on the link.
hondadude
Profile for hondadude
Re: 2013 Civic to receive substantial changes    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-06-2012 09:15
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In case you aren't able to view the article on autonews.com here it is from autoweek.com.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20120206/CARNEWS/120209930
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-06-2012 09:45
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
longhorn wrote:
TSX69 wrote:
Honda's Ito sees profit surge in year of 'complete rebound'
Ito ruled out any major overhaul of the Civic after the current version of the sedan, which failed to receive the "recommended" status its predecessors had from Consumer Reports magazine, was the best-selling model in the compact-car segment in



Not surprising,he is right,the Civic 'as is' is the number one selling make in its class. I still believe it will get a mechanical make over, ED motors, CVT,and better quality plastics in the interior. Would not be surprised if they left the exterior alone till the regular MMC. Not to mention it would devastate first year Civic resale values.


Ito's statement doesn't surprise me, and I think it makes sense.

For those customers who want a Civic-sized vehicle with the best interior quality and features, Honda will have the Acura ILX. Customers who just want a basic commuter car will buy a Civic. I know a lot of people hate the 9G Civic, but the sales figures really are the final word. This car delivers.
[...]
And it delivers for what it has always been, never the car with the highest quality stuff, nor the richest feature set, but simply an astounding value focusing on NA low-end & young customer priorities: reliability, safety, fuel economy, and nowadays "connectivity and i-MID's", and all that while having a decent car to drive.
Yet people here keep missing the point that hot Si versions have never made the numbers, LX and EX do, and from everything I've read the base Civics are just up on pair with the 8th gens in terms of "fun to drive" (lose a bit on the steering but makes up for it on the engine), way ahead of the 7th.

People just like to complain, others like me have spent months explaining things they don't want to hear about, such as "production problems", no matter how obvious they were. Now the Civic is up there and people are surprised... that's because all those complaining aren't Civic buyers to begin with (and I mean LX and EX buyers, i.e. "Civic buyers"), they used to buy them 10 or 20 years ago when they were younger, now they have other priorities and budgets (and if they buy a Civic it's an Si, while wishing it was even more expensive than it is). They want "a better and more expensive car", which is only natural, but the Civic is Honda's mainstream, and Honda has other offerings for those that "want more".
NealX
Profile for NealX
Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-06-2012 10:19
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DCR wrote:
The radio design still amazes me. I don't see how they could have possibly signed off on that design.

The Euro version seems to have worked out better:

A77
Profile for A77
Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-06-2012 10:42
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Neal wrote:
DCR wrote:
The radio design still amazes me. I don't see how they could have possibly signed off on that design.

The Euro version seems to have worked out better:



TA? Traffic advice? Thanks?
Tigerriot
Profile for Tigerriot
Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-06-2012 10:50
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Neal wrote:
DCR wrote:
The radio design still amazes me. I don't see how they could have possibly signed off on that design.

The Euro version seems to have worked out better:




Why am I not surprised. The Euro version is always better.

I really hope Honda at the very minimum addresses the interior plastics for the 2013 model.
gogzy
Profile for gogzy
Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-06-2012 14:27
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Kongming wrote:
Here's the Civic they sell in China.
Grill looks cleaner with the mesh but there's still room for improvement, same with the bumper.







does this Civic come with HID? look like it has a head light wash and so it's different than other bumper that does not need to house such device..
ipribadi
Profile for ipribadi
Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-08-2012 15:46
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I light of the '13 ILX engine choices which have no ED technology whatsoever, I feel the chances of the '13 Civic getting ED tech is very slim now.
typer_801
Profile for typer_801
Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-08-2012 15:56
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The only hope I have is based on Ito's remarks were I recall he indicated all vehicles would recieve ED technology in the next 3 years either through their MMC or FMC.

Hoping the Civic re-do is considered the MMC. Seems like another couple model years would be excrutiatingly long to wait.

ipribadi wrote:
I light of the '13 ILX engine choices which have no ED technology whatsoever, I feel the chances of the '13 Civic getting ED tech is very slim now.


Tigerriot
Profile for Tigerriot
Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-08-2012 21:32
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typer_801 wrote:
The only hope I have is based on Ito's remarks were I recall he indicated all vehicles would recieve ED technology in the next 3 years either through their MMC or FMC.

Hoping the Civic re-do is considered the MMC. Seems like another couple model years would be excrutiatingly long to wait.

ipribadi wrote:
I light of the '13 ILX engine choices which have no ED technology whatsoever, I feel the chances of the '13 Civic getting ED tech is very slim now.





I don't think there is a chance you'll see new engine/transmissions for the 2013 Civic. I think the Accord will be the first to get it, and then next year they'll begin working it into other models.
CVCC1974
Profile for CVCC1974
Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2012 14:08
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Just read the new 2012 review from South African mag:
http://www.timeslive.co.za/lifestyle/motoring/2012/02/06/civic-pride

What makes me curious is this one:
....but the steering - an electronic system debuts to aid fuel efficiency - is quick, direct and endowed with a goodly amount of road feedback.

It looks like to me that their version gets better steering than the North American one. Alongside cosmetics (exterior/interior), the main disappointment with the 2012 Civic is that the steering is not as quick & direct, and the road feedback/connection is worse than the 8th gen (and also the softer suspension setting). If they already tweaked this issue on the rest-of-the-world versions of the same Civic, the 2013 north american version should also get this tweak.
iutodd
Profile for iutodd
Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-10-2012 15:18
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Tigerriot wrote:
typer_801 wrote:
The only hope I have is based on Ito's remarks were I recall he indicated all vehicles would recieve ED technology in the next 3 years either through their MMC or FMC.

Hoping the Civic re-do is considered the MMC. Seems like another couple model years would be excrutiatingly long to wait.

ipribadi wrote:
I light of the '13 ILX engine choices which have no ED technology whatsoever, I feel the chances of the '13 Civic getting ED tech is very slim now.





I don't think there is a chance you'll see new engine/transmissions for the 2013 Civic. I think the Accord will be the first to get it, and then next year they'll begin working it into other models.




Yeah I agree with you...the Accord will lead off with the ED 2.4L+CVT, then the RL will get ESHAWD and the new DI V6 as it's base engine. Oddly enough I think the Crosstour might be the next vehicle to get some ED stuff...it depends if Honda wants to completely redesign it for the MY2013 along with the Accord or not. They'd almost have to do something if the Accord changes right - I guess the platform isn't changing that much. After that the Fit will probably be FMCed for MY2014, the MDX will probably be FMCed for MY2013, the Pilot prob for MY 2014, the TL probably MY 2014. It is my hope that all of these cars will get all ED stuff...but I think it's likely that the Pilot will just get the reworked V6+6AT. I don't see the MDX changing it's styling all that much (if the RDX is any indication) - but the new DI V6 and maybe an ESHAWD version would be nice.

As for the Civic...it doesn't really need any power train changes right now (especially not in the name of fuel economy). On fuelly.com 2012 Civic's are averaging like 34.6 mpg (up from 31ish for the 8th gen). If Honda really does change things for the MY2013 Civic's I think they will be cosmetic/feature oriented.
5-Honda-Man
Profile for 5-Honda-Man
Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 11:45
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I rather think Honda is getting whipsawed by automotive journalistic fashion, on one hand, and an extreme minority of Civic-minded automotive enthusiasts, on the other. Honda's mistake was not the 9th generation Civic's design, but rather to "blink" in the face of the meaningless noise.

Consider this. With a few noteworthy exceptions, journalists load praise on the Hyundai Elantra, Chevy Cruze, Ford Focus and Mazda 3 Skyactiv. However, when was the last time Hyundai, Ford or Chevy built a vehicle in this segment that didn't fall apart in the first 100k miles? Similarly, to reach class fuel economy targets (~40mpg Hwy), Mazda needed a new massively high compression engine and a new set of transmissions. The Slyactiv manual is already showing problems. The jury is out on the Mazda high compression engine, and despite all the hype about new technology, with a handful of engineering tweaks to the existing engine and transmissions, all proven and reliable, Honda hits the same mark. Good engineering is about refinement and improvement not erasing the whiteboard and rolling the dice anew.

Another long term gremlin bemoaned for a decade by journalists and buyers alike is road and tire noise. In the 9th generation Civic Honda delivered a much, much quieter car. Considering that more than half of all new Civics see daily commute duty with a mature driver behind the wheel, this innovation represents something meaningful for the majority of would-be buyers.

I've owned the following Honda products: 1988 Civic, 2000 CR-V, 2001 S2000, 2002 Civic Hybrid, 2002 Pilot, 2004 Civic Hybrid, 2004 Pilot, and 2005 Acura RL. After a hiatus of several years, I'm looking again at Honda products (I need a commuter car to replace my POS 2010 VW GTI DSG) and am cross shopping Hondas (the Civic is high on my list) against peers. The Elantra, in particular, is a QC nightmare. The two I've driven both had stitching fraying on seat bolsters and on the leather steering wheel cover. Imagine what that interior will look like in a year or two?

Horses for courses as they say, and in this case my course is two-fold; getting to and back from work in quiet, fuel efficient comfort (70 mile roundtrip daily commute; much of it stop and go) and a reasonably comfortable and efficient roadtrip vehicle for my wife and I (wine tasting, hitting the beach, etc.). If I wanted a car for fun and hoonery, I'd be looking at the upcoming BRZ/FR-S, not any Civic (sorry Si).

I thought that the GTI might be able to cover all three courses (hoonery, commute and wife-friendly trip car) but alas, no. It's 18" alloys produce chitty ride quality on all but glass-smooth surfaces, and are prone to flatting on contact with potholes. Fine for playing, but lousy for Despite its praised soft-touch dash materials, there are rattles and creaks aplenty. As you'd expect from the Germans, the electronics are a disaster. The TPMS system failure (not low pressure warning) light illuminates every few months and requires a dealer visit to correct. The lauded DSG transmission is crap on launch and at low speed, and worse, has a tendency to not engage reverse when the selector is put into reverse (bad for air dams in downslope parking spaces). But I digress...

My point is this. After a rough start (mostly due to the bad press and natural disasters), the 2012 Civic has again hit sales volume dominance in the segment, despite journalistic and Honda fanboi bicthin' and moanin' and despite the allegedly fancier offerings from Ford, Hyundai, Chevy and Mazda. Far from representing the end of the world as Honda knows it, this Civic is the best Civic ever for the majority of Civic users and, as sales are showing, the best car in the segment despite the over-promoted newly revised entrants from other marques.

I suspect this "do-over" won't come early as sales continue to strengthen. We heard the same kinds of promises for the Insight, and yet the MMC came on a more or less normal schedule, and ignored the biggest gripes. And what are the biggest gripes for the 2012 Civic? "I want a woven headliner!" "The dash (which we all
spend *a lot* of time fondling) isn't soft!" "The steering is too numb and I wanna put a coffee-can-sized Exhaust on my econo-compact and autocross it!" Seriously? In the grand scheme of things these are the size and importance of mouse nuts when it comes to sales.

The 9th generation Civic costs Honda less to make and delivers core buyers more of what they want than any prior Civic. Shareholders like it. Customers like it. I'd call that hitting the bullseye.



PGH
Profile for PGH
Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 12:17
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5-Honda-Man wrote:
I rather think Honda is getting whipsawed by automotive journalistic fashion, on one hand, and an extreme minority of Civic-minded automotive enthusiasts, on the other. Honda's mistake was not the 9th generation Civic's design, but rather to "blink" in the face of the meaningless noise.

Consider this. With a few noteworthy exceptions, journalists load praise on the Hyundai Elantra, Chevy Cruze, Ford Focus and Mazda 3 Skyactiv. However, when was the last time Hyundai, Ford or Chevy built a vehicle in this segment that didn't fall apart in the first 100k miles? Similarly, to reach class fuel economy targets (~40mpg Hwy), Mazda needed a new massively high compression engine and a new set of transmissions. The Slyactiv manual is already showing problems. The jury is out on the Mazda high compression engine, and despite all the hype about new technology, with a handful of engineering tweaks to the existing engine and transmissions, all proven and reliable, Honda hits the same mark. Good engineering is about refinement and improvement not erasing the whiteboard and rolling the dice anew.

Another long term gremlin bemoaned for a decade by journalists and buyers alike is road and tire noise. In the 9th generation Civic Honda delivered a much, much quieter car. Considering that more than half of all new Civics see daily commute duty with a mature driver behind the wheel, this innovation represents something meaningful for the majority of would-be buyers.

I've owned the following Honda products: 1988 Civic, 2000 CR-V, 2001 S2000, 2002 Civic Hybrid, 2002 Pilot, 2004 Civic Hybrid, 2004 Pilot, and 2005 Acura RL. After a hiatus of several years, I'm looking again at Honda products (I need a commuter car to replace my POS 2010 VW GTI DSG) and am cross shopping Hondas (the Civic is high on my list) against peers. The Elantra, in particular, is a QC nightmare. The two I've driven both had stitching fraying on seat bolsters and on the leather steering wheel cover. Imagine what that interior will look like in a year or two?

Horses for courses as they say, and in this case my course is two-fold; getting to and back from work in quiet, fuel efficient comfort (70 mile roundtrip daily commute; much of it stop and go) and a reasonably comfortable and efficient roadtrip vehicle for my wife and I (wine tasting, hitting the beach, etc.). If I wanted a car for fun and hoonery, I'd be looking at the upcoming BRZ/FR-S, not any Civic (sorry Si).

I thought that the GTI might be able to cover all three courses (hoonery, commute and wife-friendly trip car) but alas, no. It's 18" alloys produce chitty ride quality on all but glass-smooth surfaces, and are prone to flatting on contact with potholes. Fine for playing, but lousy for Despite its praised soft-touch dash materials, there are rattles and creaks aplenty. As you'd expect from the Germans, the electronics are a disaster. The TPMS system failure (not low pressure warning) light illuminates every few months and requires a dealer visit to correct. The lauded DSG transmission is crap on launch and at low speed, and worse, has a tendency to not engage reverse when the selector is put into reverse (bad for air dams in downslope parking spaces). But I digress...

My point is this. After a rough start (mostly due to the bad press and natural disasters), the 2012 Civic has again hit sales volume dominance in the segment, despite journalistic and Honda fanboi bicthin' and moanin' and despite the allegedly fancier offerings from Ford, Hyundai, Chevy and Mazda. Far from representing the end of the world as Honda knows it, this Civic is the best Civic ever for the majority of Civic users and, as sales are showing, the best car in the segment despite the over-promoted newly revised entrants from other marques.

I suspect this "do-over" won't come early as sales continue to strengthen. We heard the same kinds of promises for the Insight, and yet the MMC came on a more or less normal schedule, and ignored the biggest gripes. And what are the biggest gripes for the 2012 Civic? "I want a woven headliner!" "The dash (which we all
spend *a lot* of time fondling) isn't soft!" "The steering is too numb and I wanna put a coffee-can-sized Exhaust on my econo-compact and autocross it!" Seriously? In the grand scheme of things these are the size and importance of mouse nuts when it comes to sales.

The 9th generation Civic costs Honda less to make and delivers core buyers more of what they want than any prior Civic. Shareholders like it. Customers like it. I'd call that hitting the bullseye.






True, That say's it all- The shareholders like it. Before this car came out I had expected a home run from Honda because this class of car is becoming more popluar than ever, not only with the young crowd but also old farts like myself. I drove one when they first came out and almost bought it, but my main concern was with the crappy interior. For me it's a nightmare of cheap plastics and poorly laid out controls. I'm not a fan of the 2 tier minvan dashboard. The ride was a little choppy and noise was acceptable for this class. I guess it's mission is to be a boring reliable transportion piece because they got that right. Compared to the 89 hatchback or my 98 sedan this car does not move me like those cars did.
WongKN
Profile for WongKN
Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 12:54
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It is a frustrating situation to be in. In the first place, there are lots of arguements that the Civic is successful simply because it has gotten lots of sales. Thus it appeals to the mass market. But then the same arguement goes and tries to dismiss the negative reviews from the mainstream press, like Consumer reports (and even sometimes tries to be selective with those reviews which are positive). But the problem is one can't have the cake and eat it too (I think that is the phrase commonly used in the US). I.e. the mass market and the mainstream media comes hand-in-hand. If one wants to pander to the masses, then one needs to kowtow to the mainstream media. And when the mainstream media bashes the car, the mass market listens. So one cannot just say the Civic is successful and ignore the negative reviews. To be truly successful in the mass market, it needs to generate lots of sales volume and garner high flying reviews. This is probably one of the reason why Honda is suppsedly going to 're-do' the Civic earlier than normal (assuming the rumours are true), because it is true this Civic is catered to the mass market, the Gen Y'ers for e.g., and thus Honda realizes that they need to address the main stream media as well.

I think much, pretty much all that can be said, have been said about this Civic by now. However, we in most parts of Asia still have not gotten our 9Gen Civic yet because most of Asia is controlled from out of Honda Asia HQ in Thailand and HRT, Honda R&D Thailand, was one of the facilities which really got 'whacked' by last year's flood. Before he left for VW, I was told by the local Civic product planner that this 9Gen Civic was supposed to be launched early this year (which means it is late, which is of course not a surprise) and that it will feature R18A and R20A variants, of what configuration, he won't tell me. The rest of the car remains to be seen but from what I have seen so far, Asian versions seems to have slightly better interior quality so there is hope that one of the biggest complaints from Civic fans in the U.S. will not become an issue for the Asian Civic. Unlike what Honda in the U.S. seems to be suggesting recently, on the contrary, I think Honda Asia still do care about the feelings of their Honda fans.
5-Honda-Man
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Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 14:36
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Actually, that's not really how American automotive journalism (or American journalism in general for that matter) actually operate. The role of journalists and their publications is to manufacture "news". They don't report facts. They self-promote to be heard. They want folks to read their work because that increases their advertising (banner or conventional) revenue. Truth is the first casualty in journalism; particularly journalism directed at consumer products.

Also, journalistic praise does not sell automobile, contrary to your assertion. For decades Mazda has been the poster child of the automotive "enthusiast" press. The compact car most journalists profess that they would buy personally is the Mazda 3. Yet the Mazda 3 isn't a serious player in the segment and Mazda continues to lose money.

The other phenomenon that affects consumer products journalism is the herd effect. The editors decide what the "story" is going to be for a given model typically before the model is even commercially released and definitely before they've driven it. Sure, facts can affect the details of the story, but it's a good story that sells advertising space, not a well-conducted review. One of the archetypical stories in automotive journalism is "the underdog comes on strong and the king is dethroned". Civic's time for the "dethroned" saga came up and the first negative review appeared. Not wanting to seem stupid or clueless, the next to publication major outlets modified their Civic "story" to echo what the first reviews claimed. CR, which is perhaps the most confused and factless automotive review source in print or on the web, jumped on the dog pile, because, after all, if CD, R&T and MT said it, by God they'd look like the skill-less drivers that they are if they bucked the trend.

Ironically, when you venture outside of the mainstream US automotive media and instead examine Canadian and syndicated newspaper reviewers (who didn't get the MT memo about the "story"), the conclusions are much more positive for the model.

As for catering to fans, automotive manufacturers who really care about the enthusiast segment recognize that the features that appeal to the enthusiast are, for the most part, liabilities for the vast majority of the customer base. Such manufacturers make enthusiast specific vehicles. Honda has done this from time to time (S2000, NSX). Trying to make a car a Jack of All Trades means that it will be master of none.

I'm not panning fans. I am a fan. But when I want a Honda car for play, I buy one that is designed for play, not for work-a-day commuting. Fans whining about the Civic not being higher performance, in my view, is a little like buying Limburger cheese and then complaining that it doesn't smell nice. If you wanted something that smelled nice (was performant) you should buy something that has nice smell (performance emphasis) in the first place rather than lamenting your selection of the wrong tool for the task.

I'd rather see the Civic stay on its maturation course and have Honda cook up a dedicated performance model or two for the fans than to try and make the Civic all things for all people (yeah, I know, that was their US launch theme; ironic huh?).

As for Mazda, Ford, Chevy and Hyundai making inroads, the luster of the hyped debut reviews (don't forget the "underdog" story!) is already wearing off. Frankly, I don't think consumers trust Ford, Chevy or Hyundai to be able to design and manufacture a lasting, quality product. Even is they were made of solid gold, and worth 100,000x their purchase price in mineral value alone, I don't think any of these three could effectively compete with Honda in this space even if Honda chose to sell the 2012 model for another 8 years.

Now if Toyota would fire the grandfathers managing the Corolla program, that might be another story. Mazda, also, is an engineering driven company, so they could have a seat at the table. Of course Skyactiv looks to be a farce in context of the market. 12-14 compression ratios, specially optimized 6-speed transmissions, header on some models, and fuel economy and straight line performance similar to a standard Honda transmission and engine that is what, 8 years old? Yikes.

At the end of the day, cars that sell the most are the successful ones whether or not the mass-market reviews tell you those are the models that should be successful. Selling cars is a business. Revenue and profit are the yardsticks business success are measured by, not brownie points with Consumer Reports.
5-Honda-Man
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Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 15:05
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I hear ya, PGH. My favorite Honda have been the '88 Civic, '02 HCH and '01 CR-V I've owned. The least satisfactory Hondas I've owned have been the '05 RL, '02 Pilot and '04 HCH. The 8th generation Civic, despite the loads of automotive journalistic kudos for "taking risks" was my least favorite Honda. The hard plastic in the 9th generation is a big step up, in my opinion, over the surgical-glove-thin soft skin on the 8th generation dash. I'm also not sure why soft touch dash or woven headliner equate to quality. Rather I suspect they equate to "fashion" since neither material set does a "better job" in its role. In fact, it's possible that hard plastic is more durable and UV resistant than cheaply made, thin, soft-touch. The VW soft touch that the publications rave about, by the way, is nicer than the 8th generation Civic soft touch, but still thinner and less dense than BMWs soft touch dash material.

I spend little time touching either my headliner or dash, to be honest, so the tactile nature of these surfaces isn't a big selling point for me. Rather, I'm more interested in durable, unbreakable, efficient, comfortable commuter cars for commuting. I think that the Civic, while not perfect, achieves that goal better than any of the current crop of competitors.

ED sounds wonderfully innovative, but I've never driven a CVT I liked so reserve judgement as to whether anyone, much less Honda whose CVTs are among the suckiest, can make a fun to drive CVT. Similarly, though Honda tends to have good QA and QC, I'd not want to be an early adopter for entirely new engines and transmissions, even from Honda.

I'm not sure what I'll do to replace the GTI, but the 2012 Civic is one of my faves in the class based on my test drives. What I can't get over is this. An EX-L (no Nav) stickers at $22,275, but can be had out the door with current NorCal incentives for well under $20k. Are there any other sub-$20k compacts with leather, sunroof, heated seats and mirrors, alloys, 4 wheel disc brakes, split fold down rear seats, ample passenger room, quiet ride and >30mpg combined EPA estimates? Add in the proven reliability of the current drivetrain, and high historic resale value on the model, and I'm having a hard time identifying any real competition.

Sure, I can get all of those things in other vehicles (save for the reliability and high resale), but for considerably more than $19,800. My two year old GTI will basically let me trade straight across for the Civic. I'm having a hard time resisting its pull.


NealX
Profile for NealX
Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 16:20
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Behold, the modern "Honda Fan."
5-Honda-Man
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Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 19:13
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Nah, I'm old skool. I put gel in my hair and spike it so that it smudges the headliner when my lowered suspension bounces me over speed bumps. I am serenaded by the flatulent exhaust note of my over-sized, under-back-pressured aftermarket cat back. I also really like the whistle and the 0.45 extra lbs-ft of torque my AEM cone intake nets me. I am the envy of bus boys everywhere when I cruise by. :-)
RocketRon
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Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 19:53
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Lost, in your little make believe world, is what you are.
NealX
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Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 20:27
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Neal wrote:
Behold, the modern "Honda Fan."

Please accept my apology for this statement. It is unfair for me to judge you and this has the suggestion of a personal attack.

Regards,
Neal
RocketRon
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Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 21:26
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5-Honda-Man, you insulted a large number of individuals, so my statement stands.

5-Honda-Man wrote:
Nah, I'm old skool. I put gel in my hair and spike it so that it smudges the headliner when my lowered suspension bounces me over speed bumps. I am serenaded by the flatulent exhaust note of my over-sized, under-back-pressured aftermarket cat back. I also really like the whistle and the 0.45 extra lbs-ft of torque my AEM cone intake nets me. I am the envy of bus boys everywhere when I cruise by. :-)

5-Honda-Man
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Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 22:51
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Thanks Neal.

Regards.
5-Honda-Man
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Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 22:55
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Yeah, I really shouldn't have harshed on bus boys like that.

Sorry.
WongKN
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Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-15-2012 00:01
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Actually you missed my point but I think it is the fault that my post wasn't clear enough. What I was saying is that when one justifies anything by mere sales numbers, then it directly implies catering to the mass market and along with it, to pander to the whims and fancies of the mainstream media. Whether or not the media articles really do make or break a car's sales success is not the point. The point is, cater to mass market, then also cater to the mainstream media. They come hand in hand. And this means things like EPA ratings becomes the 'word of god'. Doesn't matter if any car doesn't deliver their EPA numbers, or Honda exceeds their EPA numbers in real life. EPA is the -FINAL- word.

For a fact I can say that Honda DO cater to the mainstream media, to the extent that they have a hierachy in terms of media rankings : newspaper/daily and related first including TV and weekly TV shows, then long time established magazines, then only the new comers. When any negative review comes out, the panic button is pressed within the organisation and everyone jumps. They rejoice when some magazine awards their cars some special prize. Some mainstream media becomes arrogant because of this special treatment afforded to them. However, this is how I observe Honda works in ASEAN and I cannot say if it applies exactly to the U.S.
mobis21
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Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-15-2012 00:45
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5-Honda-Man wrote:
Nah, I'm old skool. I put gel in my hair and spike it so that it smudges the headliner when my lowered suspension bounces me over speed bumps. I am serenaded by the flatulent exhaust note of my over-sized, under-back-pressured aftermarket cat back. I also really like the whistle and the 0.45 extra lbs-ft of torque my AEM cone intake nets me. I am the envy of bus boys everywhere when I cruise by. :-)



Love it, the .45 extra lbs-ft. Don't forget to brag to all your buddies how much faster your car feels with that AEM.
A77
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Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-15-2012 01:50
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It's not that the civic dash is not soft touch. The problem is it doesnt even look soft touch. The CRV's does - even though it isn't. Mmmm great Engish there...The civic's trouble is that the dash looks cheap. And customers do complain. Not that it seems a reason not to buy. The "rice paper" graining just isn't nice. There's nothing wrong with the actual assembly quality - its really good.

Last month's Canadian civic sales figures are truly amazing - the second highest I have ever seen - but even more amazing given the near total lack of interest in the car at my dealership last month. It wasn't that people were coming to look at it, there was just no interest. Nor so far this month. Despite tons of TV advertising. My only strong civic prospect right now is an elderly lady driving a 97 Avalon - and she says she really likes the Civic and it's the best vehicle she has driven. Nothing makes sense any more.
hondadude
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Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-15-2012 02:02
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A77 wrote:
It's not that the civic dash is not soft touch. The problem is it doesnt even look soft touch. The CRV's does - even though it isn't. Mmmm great Engish there...The civic's trouble is that the dash looks cheap. And customers do complain. Not that it seems a reason not to buy. The "rice paper" graining just isn't nice. There's nothing wrong with the actual assembly quality - its really good.

Last month's Canadian civic sales figures are truly amazing - the second highest I have ever seen - but even more amazing given the near total lack of interest in the car at my dealership last month. It wasn't that people were coming to look at it, there was just no interest. Nor so far this month. Despite tons of TV advertising. My only strong civic prospect right now is an elderly lady driving a 97 Avalon - and she says she really likes the Civic and it's the best vehicle she has driven. Nothing makes sense any more.



Yeah, Honda really got it RIGHT with the 2012 CR-V overall and particularly the interior. The dash looks and feels high quality without being soft touch. The graining and appearance are spot on. When Honda does the 2013 Civic refresh they really need to use the same materials/graining as on the excellent CR-V.
5-Honda-Man
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Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-15-2012 11:29
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"The point is, cater to mass market, then also cater to the mainstream media. They come hand in hand."

Wait a minute. Wouldn't you agree that the9th generation Civic has been widely panned in the mainstream media?

Nonetheless (and in spite of the lamentation that it has lost what little edginess it had retained (it has) and mass media rejection) its sales have taken off and it is on track to once again dominate its segment, much to the chagrin of Ford, Mazda, Chevy and Hyundai who made big investments in the segment.

Pretty clearly successful sales and mass media praise do not need to go hand in hand. The 9th generation Civic proves that.

The other thing I think we need to keep in mind is this. There's a very good set of reasons fuel efficiency is rising to the forefront all across the industry, and it has nothing to do with dogma. It has to do with reality. If fuel economy stayed where it is today, Earth will run out of oil in 50 to 90 years depending on who you believe. Long before we run out of oil, oil prices will rise and supply will shrink. In fifteen years, $10 a gallon gasoline in the US and double that in Europe are realistic possibilities, if not probabilities.

Automakers understand this, and for people to be able to afford to drive their vehicles, they need to improve efficiency. That's not something that happens overnight and also not something that peacefully cohabitates with performance and driving excitement. On the other hand, comfort, serenity, and the like can be managed without unduly damaging efficiency.

Earth Dreams should bring wonderful efficiency improvements, but I doubt it will also bring better performance. If anything, the comfort/serenity trend seems more consistent with ED technology and primary objectives.

So while I agree that Honda and all other manufacturers seek positive press, I suggest that the failure to achieve praise in the press is no barrier to sales when (a) your product is better quality than the products favored by the media and (b) your target buyer is smart enough to figure this out (i.e., is not influenced by the media to a large extent).

I predict that, at most, we'll see a few cosmetic nods from Honda and the press, embarrassed by being shown to be out of touch with the consumer base, will declare victory and we'll see that what will remain primarily exactly the same vehicle has suddenly become praise-worthy in the media.

In other words, the media would like to be the dog's nose, scenting the path ahead and charting the way, but instead is really nothing more than its tail.

I think Honda should can any pretense of performance with the Civic (no Si, no Type R) and instead create a couple of high performance, low margin (or even money losing) halo cars that are purpose-built for entertainment rather than efficiency. That's what the Toyota and Subaru JV has done with the new RWD coupe. Demand far outstrips supply, and they aren't gouging on them, so obviously they aren't focused on margin but rather on influencing perception. Such vehicles are marketing strategies rather than revenue strategies.
5-Honda-Man
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Re: Honda Hurries to ReDo Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-15-2012 13:23
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That's a fair point A77.

I actually don't mind the texture on the hard plastic cowling, but where I think they missed a step is on the proliferation of *different* textures on the dash components. The Euro-spec Civic stereo treatment Neal posted shows a consistent grain surrounding the head unit. In the 2012 US-spec Civic, the entire head unit fascia is one grain and the adjacent dash panels are another.

To me, it looks a little busy and/or hodge-podge, but not "cheap". Cheap in my book are large and/or inconsistent gaps between panels (soft touch or otherwise - hear that Hyundai and Chevy?). I'd call the mismatching of textures "tacky" or "shabby" like wearing plaid and stripes together.

Concoct a little story about the graining. Research rice paper manufacturing and history. Associate the funky grain with something exotic. That's what marketing is all about - turning neutrals or negatives into "features".

Example:

http://www.hiromipaper.com/hpi_about_washi.htm

"It's not shabby! You just don't understand the deep cultural significance of the Washi graining. Let me tell you about the art of Japanese papermaking and its importance..."

;-)
 
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