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TOV Forums > Today's Reading Links > > Re: The new Honda of the future

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P54
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The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 11:45
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There is a lot of commotion and negative publicity about Honda these days. They are always being compared to what they made in the 80's or 90's while I think if you drove the current car and switched back to the old one you would prefer the new one. Other car makers have changed with the times too, and what was a selling point back in the "ol' days" is not so important anymore to most people. Rules, regulations and standards that manufacturers have to comply with have changed over the years and young and older buyers are more interested in "cool" stuff & features than technological "wizardry".

That Honda have changed many things to better cope with the adverse economy is true and that not all products have been a home run is also true, however if you never risk something new you never learn from mistake how to grow in the right direction. In the process of change it is also easy to get out of balance and overdo things. Eventually if in going through this it makes the company more streamlined, leaner for faster decision making and healthier economically it is a good by product of the changing process or "failures".

I think we can safely say that Honda for the most part is still competitive with current drive train, engines and 5 speed, in regard to FE and performance. That some are griping about the lack of 8-9000 rpm engines that competition is lacking too, or the lack of 6 speed on all models, or MT on all models and just because some models lack the right "plastics" or design does not make Honda a sudden looser.

Now Honda is a company like no other, with the worlds most advanced robot, with the worlds most efficient and class leading business jet, with the only hydrogen car in use by private owners and the world leader when it comes to motorcycles. Still they are able to make the best engines and MT to boot. The world is changing and so are products offered going to change. What other car manufacturer have come up with technology as diverse and cutting edge as Honda? Is Honda lagging behind or are they really way ahead? As they always have been. Just to mention, the worlds most produced and copied engine was designed by the late Mr Soichiro Honda over 50 years ago and is still being made today, all over the world, even being able to meet today's standards for clean operation. A more than 50 years old design. Who else can match that? And the engine is almost bulletproof as long as you give it oil changes. Now let us see what Honda has in store for future. While other cities are suffering from the popularity of diesel engines and the health destroying air quality it leaves behind, Honda is working on a better alternative, whether hydrogen or electric. See article:

Honda's low carbon hatch and home


SMART HOME: All part of Honda's plan to monitor and ease a family's whole carbon footprint and not just that of their car. The Honda city electric vehicle shown could easily be an electric Jazz or a plug-in hybrid.

ELECTRIC JAZZ: In Japan there are a raft of ways you can charge such a car; at home, at work and in carparks.

Japanese car maker Honda has been developing conventional plug-in and fuel-cell electric vehicles (EVs) for years. However, as well as merely swapping petrol power for electricity, Honda has also looked at how the power for its EVs is generated in the first place.

To demonstrate this, the company has even built a proposed future home to show how electric power for every part of a typical family's needs can impose less and less of an agenda on its neighbours and on the national power grid.

On the grounds of its Twin Ring Motegi racing and test track northeast of Tokyo, Honda has built what it calls its Smart Home, which is all part of a residential and transport management system that powers and manages the energy of the home. It represents the most effective way to live within one's energy means that I have seen.

The Smart Home's roof, on the southern, most effective sun-catching side in Japan, is covered with solar panels that replace the usual silicon-based photovoltaic setup with a copper, indium, gallium and selenium material.

Honda says its photovoltaic layer is one-80th the thickness of a typical monocrystaline silicon version, and while its overall energy conversion efficiency is just a little less than that of silicon, it converts more wavelengths of light into electricity.

The advantage of this is an ability to operate in low sunlight and shade more efficiently than conventional systems. Thus winter conditions are less of a problem.

A computer-controlled system, called the Smart E-Mix Manager, helps direct current into or out of all the devices that need it, to the most efficient end.

The Smart Home also includes a natural-gas, propane or even petrol-powered "cogeneration system" that uses a single- cylinder engine to produce 1kW of electricity and up to 2.5kW of recoverable heat energy for hot water and home heating.

A 2kW-hour lead-acid battery is also used to store surplus energy, and charge the electric vehicle.

The Smart Home is still in development and Honda intends to add additional features and amenities to it, such as independent electricity production in the event of a natural disaster.

Honda already has a system that uses solar cells of about the expanse of a typical garage roof to charge its new all-electric Jazz.

The system stores energy sufficiently well so that the car can be fully charged by morning, and if during the day, the charger is full any extra energy can be put into the national grid system and/ or directed back into the household.

The Jazz could have been designed from the start to use electric power, with its fuel tank mounted under the front seats and creating huge expanses of storage and passenger volume when compared with other B-segment hatchbacks.

The Jazz EV swaps its petrol engine for a 92kW electric motor, while the fuel tank is replaced with a lithium-ion battery that Honda says will give a range of about 190 kilometres. A special onboard charger setup allows the Jazz to reach a full charge in about three hours from a 240v system.

Slowing down and braking helps charge the car too, through the same regeneration methods already used by other electric car makers.

The battery cells and electric power unit dovetail elegantly with the car as a whole, although the battery pack does eliminate the under-squab flexibility of the Jazz's famous "magic" rear seat.

Also, changes had to be made to the car's rear suspension to accommodate its new method of propulsion.

This is no bad thing, as instead of the petrol car's fairly ordinary torsion-beam setup, it uses a more sophisticated multi-link arrangement.

As a result, the EV car rides so much better than the stock Jazz, and displays the kind of crisp turn-in and well-sorted body control that the petrol car cannot.

It is remarkably good fun, with a level of steering feeling - and not just for an electric system - that amazed me the moment I took the car through its first test-track corner.


Using a three-mode drive system, as in the CR-Z hybrid, the Jazz's throttle pedal can be primed to imbue three distinct responses from the almost silent drivetrain.

Sport allows the Jazz EV to launch off the line as if there's no tomorrow, along with a tell-tale yelp of briefly spinning rubber.

Switched into Econ mode, it's as if you've gone into slow motion by mistake. It probably preserves the battery a tad, and it offers slightly better range, so you may need to commute in this mode.

However, my favourite drive setting was Normal, which is quick enough for the Jazz to stay ahead of traffic, while showing a less alarming depletion of energy resources on the car's dash display graphic than the Sport setting does.

I have driven a few electric vehicles now - ground-up designs as well as factory and home-converted petrol cars - and while you could say the Jazz EV is one of the latter, albeit in a corporate kind of way, it is simply the most fun and convincing car of this type I've had my hands on.

True, they will have to do something about the car's range, and I will miss those clever theatre-like fold-up rear-seat squabs, but, my word, the car feels so right in every other area.

It's not beyond imagining a Jazz EV like this living with its family unit, say 50km or less from work.

It would have little effect on the grid or your power bill, but would provide as much fun or more than a conventional car, plus a pleasingly smug feeling that you won't be getting from our fossil- fuelled machines.

We won't be able to buy the Jazz EV just yet.

In Japan and in California, Oregon and some yet to be finalised East Coast states, about 1100 examples of the Jazz EV, which is also known as the Fit EV, will be available on lease for about $NZ480 a month.

That sounds like a lot for a small car, but this isn't just a small car. It proves that using electric cars can be fun and that you don't necessarily need forests of wind vanes and several flooded valleys to cope with charging them.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/motoring/6742554/Hondas-low-carbon-hatch-and-home
DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 13:15
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P54 wrote:
I think we can safely say that Honda for the most part is still competitive with current drive train, engines and 5 speed, in regard to FE and performance. That some are griping about the lack of 8-9000 rpm engines that competition is lacking too, or the lack of 6 speed on all models, or MT on all models and just because some models lack the right "plastics" or design does not make Honda a sudden looser.


You can't help yourself, can you?

I stopped reading right there, by the way. In the future, you may want to put that at the end, or better yet, not include it at all.
330R
Profile for 330R
Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 15:07
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P54 wrote:
There is a lot of commotion and negative publicity about Honda these days.


Why do you think that is?

They are always being compared to what they made in the 80's or 90's


Again, why do you think that is?

while I think if you drove the current car and switched back to the old one you would prefer the new one.


What current cars and what old cars are you talking about, and what metrics are you using to determine a preference? Ride? Safety? Performance? Materials and build quality? Intangibles? My 2011 Si is a better daily driver than my 2000 ITR, but that is to be expected, as they're different in the scope of their intentions. The 2012 Si is supposedly better still around town, yet after driving one the negatives outweigh the positives and as such the 2011 is the superior vehicle IMO.

I think you're saying the new cars are better because you lack the understanding of why many Honda enthusiasts love the Hondas from the 80s or 90s. From your continued posts, practically wishing away Honda's great cars from the past, on which this site was created and its membership was grown, it just doesn't seem to "click" with you why we're here. For example, this thread you started today, which is obviously a retort to the Japanese business magazine "BOSS" article in the General Talk forum, reads to me like yet another propaganda piece. This electric car future you postulate and present to TOV, sounds downright miserable to me.

Other car makers have changed with the times too, and what was a selling point back in the "ol' days" is not so important anymore to most people.


"Most people" are not car enthusiasts. When the topic turns to cars, I don't really care what "most people" find important.

Rules, regulations and standards that manufacturers have to comply with have changed over the years


That's a favorite of yours. You use it a lot, in a sort of, "it's over for you people, accept your fate" sort of way. Then a car like the 86/BRZ comes along to show your hippy dream is not fully realized, thank goodness.

and young and older buyers are more interested in "cool" stuff & features than technological "wizardry".


As in, the young who would rather "visit" their friends on Facebook or text message them instead of having the chore of driving a car get in the way? As in, the older buyers who would prefer a rolling sarcophagus in which to carry on a conference call or to isolate themselves from the world around them or the tones and sensory frequencies emitted from their mechanical conveyance? Those buyers? There are a lot of those people; the latter, anyway, when talking about car owners. That said, in the context of and the forum of Temple of VTEC, what about those people? Driving enthusiasts are different, and have never been the bulk of the bulk market. I personally have told you this before. Yet, you still come here and still say it like we're supposed to become those people. No. If Honda released an all hybrid/electric lineup tomorrow, NO. That's the day I will never own another new Honda. Screw the boring masses and screw the propaganda shoving this garbage down our throats.

That Honda have changed many things to better cope with the adverse economy is true and that not all products have been a home run is also true, however if you never risk something new you never learn from mistake how to grow in the right direction


It's not Honda's fault that the economy fell apart. Their poor product planning, refusal to listen to their longtime fans & repeat buyers, over reliance on dubious "focus groups" with WTF metrics, chasing the Geritol/Toyota crowd, dumbing down/cheaping out their cars, neglecting their core products to follow through on strange niche vehicles no one asked for, investing too many resources on hybrids that can't move off dealer lots or out of their own way... those are Honda's fault. It's not that Honda isn't afforded the right to make mistakes, it's that they're trying to abandon who they are and what made them great. They want to maintain their market share while gradually (sometimes more substantially) removing investment/quality/content/value from their products.

Go back and read the first sentence in your opening post. Now do you have to ask why?

In the process of change it is also easy to get out of balance and overdo things. Eventually if in going through this it makes the company more streamlined, leaner for faster decision making and healthier economically it is a good by product of the changing process or "failures".


See above.

I think we can safely say that Honda for the most part is still competitive with current drive train, engines and 5 speed, in regard to FE and performance. That some are griping about the lack of 8-9000 rpm engines that competition is lacking too, or the lack of 6 speed on all models, or MT on all models and just because some models lack the right "plastics" or design does not make Honda a sudden looser.


We didn't go to the competition for 8-9000 rpm engines. We were with Honda for those. Let that sink in for once. That's a perfect illustration of the problem. You just don't or refuse to understand why so many people are Honda fans. The engineering. The amazing engines. Who else does 8000 rpm redlines? Toyota had one, with the help of Yamaha. BMW has a V10. Already the examples are getting expensive. Ferrari. More expensive. The screaming Honda engines gave a Ferrari-like soundtrack inside the car. That kind of visceral entertainment, in a $20-$35k car? Incredible.

Only an apologist would try to downplay or excuse things like Honda being behind on implementing 6-speed automatic transmissions. Oh yes, and those small, miniscule details like interior materials and interior/exterior styling. Those aren't important! That is, if they deflate your entire argument, right?

Can you please explain to me why the company who can do such amazing things with bipedal robots, jets, solar cells, and more, should be given a pass on their lackluster core products? Oh, right, they're in transistion, so please forgive them, 2012 Civic owners. I can't really feel too badly for those who took the plunge to purchase one.

Now Honda is a company like no other, with the worlds most advanced robot, with the worlds most efficient and class leading business jet, with the only hydrogen car in use by private owners and the world leader when it comes to motorcycles. Still they are able to make the best engines and MT to boot.


What's with the sales pitch? Everyone here already knows all that. I'll come back to the part about the best engines, though.

The world is changing and so are products offered going to change. What other car manufacturer have come up with technology as diverse and cutting edge as Honda? Is Honda lagging behind or are they really way ahead? As they always have been.


The world was changing in the 80s and 90s, too. I'm using those as they're your example. Honda has been innovative and ingenuitive in various areas, there is nothing to refute that. German auto manufacturers may work with the likes of TRW, Bosch, Continental, etc, but they also bring innovations and advancements to market. They'll more often implement a feature that Honda won't until it has matured or been improved upon, or true to Honda's way, engineer a simpler, more reliable solution.

Just to mention, the worlds most produced and copied engine was designed by the late Mr Soichiro Honda over 50 years ago and is still being made today, all over the world, even being able to meet today's standards for clean operation. A more than 50 years old design. Who else can match that?


That's really something. Yet, the same company recently discontinued (IMO) one of the greatest inline-4 cylinder engines ever made, at only 10 years old, because they lacked the nerve or care to develop it to pass future emissions standards. As a result, there no longer remains a single example of a DOHC i-VTEC engine in their entire global portfolio. For all the years of championing this engineering achievement on race tracks and in marketing materials, it has vanished. I guess no one was supposed to notice, and instead march in step to the Honda dealer for an IMA-snoozefest. Take your medicine, we say it's the future.

Now let us see what Honda has in store for future.


Is that a threat?

DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 15:45
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Did you ever think you'd see the day where you have to defend yourself here because you LIKE the screaming VTEC engines Honda used to make?

Given the resources, I have to imagine that the engineers at Honda could have very easily kept the K20 compliant. In fact...how compliant did it really need to be? Was it not going to pass?
according2kev
Profile for according2kev
Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 15:52
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Interesting article P54. Thanks for sharing.
Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 15:55
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It's becoming a bit like a real temple; all heretics will be put to death!

The future is a faceless electric consumer box.

Well, Eppur si muove. It's about 90% sayonara, Honda.

Good luck with the future. I'll be back for an Asimo.
P54
Profile for P54
Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 16:11
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Like ITO said, first make money, then we develop cars for the whiners....oops, I mean enthusiasts. Selling cars catering only to you would have made them bankrupt fast. When resourceful companies like Toyota and Subaru had to team up together to make something you like, (and Honda made in the past), it is a telling story that Honda achieved it alone. They'll be back, with drive-trains that will last a while into the future.

Honda being alone it is a must for them to make mass market products succeed, Honda is gearing towards meeting future standards and when that is done and money is coming in they can afford to play around with vehicles for gear-heads. Honda was severely hampered last years and lost a 1/4 million cars in production.

Personally I would like Honda to come out with an affordable sporty car. One with a 1.5-2.0 L NA V6 with 10000 rpm. And the 7 speed DCT.
HondaFan1990
Profile for HondaFan1990
Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 16:25
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330R wrote:
P54 wrote:
There is a lot of commotion and negative publicity about Honda these days.


Why do you think that is?

They are always being compared to what they made in the 80's or 90's


Again, why do you think that is?

while I think if you drove the current car and switched back to the old one you would prefer the new one.


What current cars and what old cars are you talking about, and what metrics are you using to determine a preference? Ride? Safety? Performance? Materials and build quality? Intangibles? My 2011 Si is a better daily driver than my 2000 ITR, but that is to be expected, as they're different in the scope of their intentions. The 2012 Si is supposedly better still around town, yet after driving one the negatives outweigh the positives and as such the 2011 is the superior vehicle IMO.

I think you're saying the new cars are better because you lack the understanding of why many Honda enthusiasts love the Hondas from the 80s or 90s. From your continued posts, practically wishing away Honda's great cars from the past, on which this site was created and its membership was grown, it just doesn't seem to "click" with you why we're here. For example, this thread you started today, which is obviously a retort to the Japanese business magazine "BOSS" article in the General Talk forum, reads to me like yet another propaganda piece. This electric car future you postulate and present to TOV, sounds downright miserable to me.

Other car makers have changed with the times too, and what was a selling point back in the "ol' days" is not so important anymore to most people.


"Most people" are not car enthusiasts. When the topic turns to cars, I don't really care what "most people" find important.

Rules, regulations and standards that manufacturers have to comply with have changed over the years


That's a favorite of yours. You use it a lot, in a sort of, "it's over for you people, accept your fate" sort of way. Then a car like the 86/BRZ comes along to show your hippy dream is not fully realized, thank goodness.

and young and older buyers are more interested in "cool" stuff & features than technological "wizardry".


As in, the young who would rather "visit" their friends on Facebook or text message them instead of having the chore of driving a car get in the way? As in, the older buyers who would prefer a rolling sarcophagus in which to carry on a conference call or to isolate themselves from the world around them or the tones and sensory frequencies emitted from their mechanical conveyance? Those buyers? There are a lot of those people; the latter, anyway, when talking about car owners. That said, in the context of and the forum of Temple of VTEC, what about those people? Driving enthusiasts are different, and have never been the bulk of the bulk market. I personally have told you this before. Yet, you still come here and still say it like we're supposed to become those people. No. If Honda released an all hybrid/electric lineup tomorrow, NO. That's the day I will never own another new Honda. Screw the boring masses and screw the propaganda shoving this garbage down our throats.

That Honda have changed many things to better cope with the adverse economy is true and that not all products have been a home run is also true, however if you never risk something new you never learn from mistake how to grow in the right direction


It's not Honda's fault that the economy fell apart. Their poor product planning, refusal to listen to their longtime fans & repeat buyers, over reliance on dubious "focus groups" with WTF metrics, chasing the Geritol/Toyota crowd, dumbing down/cheaping out their cars, neglecting their core products to follow through on strange niche vehicles no one asked for, investing too many resources on hybrids that can't move off dealer lots or out of their own way... those are Honda's fault. It's not that Honda isn't afforded the right to make mistakes, it's that they're trying to abandon who they are and what made them great. They want to maintain their market share while gradually (sometimes more substantially) removing investment/quality/content/value from their products.

Go back and read the first sentence in your opening post. Now do you have to ask why?

In the process of change it is also easy to get out of balance and overdo things. Eventually if in going through this it makes the company more streamlined, leaner for faster decision making and healthier economically it is a good by product of the changing process or "failures".


See above.

I think we can safely say that Honda for the most part is still competitive with current drive train, engines and 5 speed, in regard to FE and performance. That some are griping about the lack of 8-9000 rpm engines that competition is lacking too, or the lack of 6 speed on all models, or MT on all models and just because some models lack the right "plastics" or design does not make Honda a sudden looser.


We didn't go to the competition for 8-9000 rpm engines. We were with Honda for those. Let that sink in for once. That's a perfect illustration of the problem. You just don't or refuse to understand why so many people are Honda fans. The engineering. The amazing engines. Who else does 8000 rpm redlines? Toyota had one, with the help of Yamaha. BMW has a V10. Already the examples are getting expensive. Ferrari. More expensive. The screaming Honda engines gave a Ferrari-like soundtrack inside the car. That kind of visceral entertainment, in a $20-$35k car? Incredible.

Only an apologist would try to downplay or excuse things like Honda being behind on implementing 6-speed automatic transmissions. Oh yes, and those small, miniscule details like interior materials and interior/exterior styling. Those aren't important! That is, if they deflate your entire argument, right?

Can you please explain to me why the company who can do such amazing things with bipedal robots, jets, solar cells, and more, should be given a pass on their lackluster core products? Oh, right, they're in transistion, so please forgive them, 2012 Civic owners. I can't really feel too badly for those who took the plunge to purchase one.

Now Honda is a company like no other, with the worlds most advanced robot, with the worlds most efficient and class leading business jet, with the only hydrogen car in use by private owners and the world leader when it comes to motorcycles. Still they are able to make the best engines and MT to boot.


What's with the sales pitch? Everyone here already knows all that. I'll come back to the part about the best engines, though.

The world is changing and so are products offered going to change. What other car manufacturer have come up with technology as diverse and cutting edge as Honda? Is Honda lagging behind or are they really way ahead? As they always have been.


The world was changing in the 80s and 90s, too. I'm using those as they're your example. Honda has been innovative and ingenuitive in various areas, there is nothing to refute that. German auto manufacturers may work with the likes of TRW, Bosch, Continental, etc, but they also bring innovations and advancements to market. They'll more often implement a feature that Honda won't until it has matured or been improved upon, or true to Honda's way, engineer a simpler, more reliable solution.

Just to mention, the worlds most produced and copied engine was designed by the late Mr Soichiro Honda over 50 years ago and is still being made today, all over the world, even being able to meet today's standards for clean operation. A more than 50 years old design. Who else can match that?


That's really something. Yet, the same company recently discontinued (IMO) one of the greatest inline-4 cylinder engines ever made, at only 10 years old, because they lacked the nerve or care to develop it to pass future emissions standards. As a result, there no longer remains a single example of a DOHC i-VTEC engine in their entire global portfolio. For all the years of championing this engineering achievement on race tracks and in marketing materials, it has vanished. I guess no one was supposed to notice, and instead march in step to the Honda dealer for an IMA-snoozefest. Take your medicine, we say it's the future.

Now let us see what Honda has in store for future.


Is that a threat?




Question 330R:

Does his stance on Honda really require such a response? Does his opinion and viewpoint really bother you that much? Now I can understand where he is coming from and you make very good points to show where you come from also, but was this "rebuttal" of sorts really warranted? He can continue to post his opinion as much as he likes on here since this is a public open forum where people are allowed to do so. And if this is Temple Of VTEC, as in Honda, all topics and opinions of Honda should be able to be discussed, not chastised because someone doesn't see something the way you do.

It's good to see articles about Honda from all viewpoints, good and bad. Why are here if we can't discuss all aspects of the brand, not just the parts we feel are lacking? It won't always be peaches and cream but it for sure won't be all doom and gloom either....
330R
Profile for 330R
Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 16:29
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DCR wrote:
Did you ever think you'd see the day where you have to defend yourself here because you LIKE the screaming VTEC engines Honda used to make?


It's been going on here for a while now, hasn't it? This guy has been at it for a couple of years. And it's completely ridiculous. It's depressing! If you have to argue to defend what is the basic, core principle this online community was founded on, then what do we have? Something has gotten lost.

Given the resources, I have to imagine that the engineers at Honda could have very easily kept the K20 compliant. In fact...how compliant did it really need to be? Was it not going to pass?


It wasn't ULEV compliant in the US, and was discontinued in Europe in 2010 because of impending emissions rules. Japan, same story. But we have Honda, who still pulls out the old chestnut about how they showed up GM in the 1970s by taking one of their V8s (a 305, I believe) and making it emissions compliant by fabricating CVCC heads for it, when GM said the new emissions standards were impossible or too costly to meet - and Honda themselves cannot or will not invest to prolong the best performance L4 they've ever made, alongside the F20C/F22C. They'd rather soldier on with an engine fit for a cute ute; again a great engine, once better still, until they removed technology from it.
sfenders
Profile for sfenders
Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 16:30
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P54 wrote:
Like ITO said, first make money, then we develop cars for the whiners....oops, I mean enthusiasts. Selling cars catering only to you would have made them bankrupt fast.


Yeah, they need to focus on the high-profit stuff... like selling CIGS solar cells, EVs, and hydrogen fuel cells.

DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 16:37
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If Honda never made cars for the whiners, none of us would be here. P54 wouldn't have a site to complain about enthusiasts on.
330R
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Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 16:42
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P54 wrote:
Like ITO said, first make money, then we develop cars for the whiners....oops, I mean enthusiasts. Selling cars catering only to you would have made them bankrupt fast. When resourceful companies like Toyota and Subaru had to team up together to make something you like, (and Honda made in the past), it is a telling story that Honda achieved it alone. They'll be back, with drive-trains that will last a while into the future.

Honda being alone it is a must for them to make mass market products succeed, Honda is gearing towards meeting future standards and when that is done and money is coming in they can afford to play around with vehicles for gear-heads. Honda was severely hampered last years and lost a 1/4 million cars in production.

Personally I would like Honda to come out with an affordable sporty car. One with a 1.5-2.0 L NA V6 with 10000 rpm. And the 7 speed DCT.



I don't care much for anything ITO says. He's your messiah, not mine. You call enthusiasts whiners. I call apologists and shills like yourself mindless drones.

Who the hell even remotely intimated "selling cars catering only to you"? Can you only see in extremes? This is all retreading past arguments, P54. No one, No one, No one asked for a lineup of nothing but enthusiast cars. Seriously, knock it off. You act like the world is going to end because TOVers want excitement injected into Honda's lineup again.

As far as I'm concerned, as long as they right-size the Accord and make it a family man's driver's car again (mildly, not wildly), deliver a proper conventional ICE for the poor CR-Z (maybe it's not too late), bring a true Civic Type-R to the US (maybe best to wait for the 10th gen), re-sexify the TL and keep sprinkling magic dust on the MDX, then they can electrify and hybridize the rest of the lineup, and maybe we both can be happy.
330R
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Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 16:52
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HondaFan1990 wrote:
Question 330R:

Does his stance on Honda really require such a response? Does his opinion and viewpoint really bother you that much? Now I can understand where he is coming from and you make very good points to show where you come from also, but was this "rebuttal" of sorts really warranted? He can continue to post his opinion as much as he likes on here since this is a public open forum where people are allowed to do so. And if this is Temple Of VTEC, as in Honda, all topics and opinions of Honda should be able to be discussed, not chastised because someone doesn't see something the way you do.

It's good to see articles about Honda from all viewpoints, good and bad. Why are here if we can't discuss all aspects of the brand, not just the parts we feel are lacking? It won't always be peaches and cream but it for sure won't be all doom and gloom either....



Welcome. I've been reading your posts. They're interesting if not a little suspicious, but hey, like I said, welcome to TOV! I don't know if you did any lurking around before you joined, but a lot of people are passionate and emotional on here, not just analytical. There's lots of that, too. There are "sides", unfortunately. There are fans of the products and there are fans of making money off those products, with again unfortunately, little care for those products fans showing.

We don't all get along. It's a temple but not a utopia. P54 has every right to post here. I don't have to like what he has to say. I'm sure he wishes I'd be quiet. It's just the way it is. I don't agree with P54 and it's a deep disagreement. Sucks you had to see it.
330R
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Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 17:13
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HondaFan1990, forgot to tell you that my first Honda was a new 1994 Civic EX Coupe, Milano Red :) I didn't have a rear spoiler, though. I absolutely loved that car and kept it for 6 years. It went through some big transformations, but even stock it was a great time.
HondaFan1990
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Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 17:15
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330R wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:
Question 330R:

Does his stance on Honda really require such a response? Does his opinion and viewpoint really bother you that much? Now I can understand where he is coming from and you make very good points to show where you come from also, but was this "rebuttal" of sorts really warranted? He can continue to post his opinion as much as he likes on here since this is a public open forum where people are allowed to do so. And if this is Temple Of VTEC, as in Honda, all topics and opinions of Honda should be able to be discussed, not chastised because someone doesn't see something the way you do.

It's good to see articles about Honda from all viewpoints, good and bad. Why are here if we can't discuss all aspects of the brand, not just the parts we feel are lacking? It won't always be peaches and cream but it for sure won't be all doom and gloom either....



Welcome. I've been reading your posts. They're interesting if not a little suspicious, but hey, like I said, welcome to TOV! I don't know if you did any lurking around before you joined, but a lot of people are passionate and emotional on here, not just analytical. There's lots of that, too. There are "sides", unfortunately. There are fans of the products and there are fans of making money off those products, with again unfortunately, little care for those products fans showing.

We don't all get along. It's a temple but not a utopia. P54 has every right to post here. I don't have to like what he has to say. I'm sure he wishes I'd be quiet. It's just the way it is. I don't agree with P54 and it's a deep disagreement. Sucks you had to see it.



No, it's fine I saw it. I was just wondering. I've been reading posts on here for about 4 months. I've seen it all. Thanks for the welcome. But what is suspicious about my posting? Interesting is good I guess, but why suspicious? I'm not here to send any propaganda or a hidden agenda from Honda or anything like that. If that were the case, I would need to be on Honda's payroll and I've yet to see a check or direct deposit from Honda paying me haha I'm just discussing Honda...
330R
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Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 17:29
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HondaFan1990 wrote:

No, it's fine I saw it. I was just wondering. I've been reading posts on here for about 4 months. I've seen it all. Thanks for the welcome. But what is suspicious about my posting? Interesting is good I guess, but why suspicious? I'm not here to send any propaganda or a hidden agenda from Honda or anything like that. If that were the case, I would need to be on Honda's payroll and I've yet to see a check or direct deposit from Honda paying me haha I'm just discussing Honda...



It should be taken as a compliment, I'd say. You're knowledgeable in a sense more than a lot of people your age, about eh, I guess the later years of Honda's glory era. I haven't seen you cross post across three forums (like I've seen the OP do) something that screams PR, so no I don't think you're spreading propaganda ;)
Hondarulez
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Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 18:04
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Well, I guess P54 is very passionate of Honda. Some of his posts are a bit biased but he also admitted that Honda is not perfect.

He is not saying things such as:

The CR-Z a rocket;
The Civic has the best interior quality in class;
RWD is for losers;
No one needs 8000rpm redline

All he's saying is currently Honda doesn't offer many products that car enthusiasts want. He also wants to see more sporty cars and new technologies from Honda.

It's just that in this forum, a lot of people seem to only focus on the negative things. P54 is simply trying to point out the positive things that Honda does. He's not exactly hiding the negatives.

The point is, some Honda enthusiasts like to focus more on the positive facts (like P54 and me). We try to understand why Honda is making decisions that are not good to car enthusiasts. On the other hand, there's another group of people who focus mainly on the negative things, and that inevitably makes things sound even worse. Just different POV.
Powered by Honda
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Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 18:05
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the future looks grim and boring.
330R
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Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 18:56
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Hondarulez wrote:
Well, I guess P54 is very passionate of Honda. Some of his posts are a bit biased but he also admitted that Honda is not perfect.

He is not saying things such as:

The CR-Z a rocket;
The Civic has the best interior quality in class;
RWD is for losers;
No one needs 8000rpm redline

All he's saying is currently Honda doesn't offer many products that car enthusiasts want. He also wants to see more sporty cars and new technologies from Honda.

It's just that in this forum, a lot of people seem to only focus on the negative things. P54 is simply trying to point out the positive things that Honda does. He's not exactly hiding the negatives.

The point is, some Honda enthusiasts like to focus more on the positive facts (like P54 and me). We try to understand why Honda is making decisions that are not good to car enthusiasts. On the other hand, there's another group of people who focus mainly on the negative things, and that inevitably makes things sound even worse. Just different POV.



If 330R is biased toward vehicle dynamic performance, emotive driving enjoyment, and Honda showing they're really trying, I have to say P54 is biased toward Honda financial performance, green technologies, press releases/spin, and downplaying the loss in spirit/prowess.

He didn't try to say the Civic has the best interior quality in class, but he sure posted across 4-5 subforums that the Civic interior is the least toxic. That's an achievement, but not everyone wants it shoved down their throat, and it comes at the expense of quality look and feel. It remains to be seen how well it holds up.

His defense that Honda doesn't have an engine with an 8000rpm redline is, well by golly, the competition doesn't, either. In essence, he is saying no one needs it. If no one offers it right now, then it can't be that important. It's the way I feel about most car salesmen, the way P54 comes across: if it's not for sale anymore, it's not important. If it is for sale, talk it up. If it's coming in the future, talk it up some more.

Read his opening comments...

P54 laments that people won't stop talking about the older Hondas. If you notice, he tries to sell the new cars by saying he thinks people would prefer them to the old, if driven back to back. This is in spite of the fact most of us have driven both the old and the new, and we still love the old, as well as perhaps the new or the recent. He says, well Honda is changing with the times, but so is the competition, and the things people used to care for (or the selling points, he calls them) aren't so important anymore. Notice, more casting away the old, trying to convince us the new is right, and get with the times. He then attempts to rip from the headlines, apologize for Honda's lack of technical advancements, or, for example, removing technology from the K24 engine:

young and older buyers are more interested in "cool" stuff & features than technological "wizardry"


That comes right out of the discussions about Acura's clinics and research into the ILX; the youth don't care about engineering advancements; they care about connectivity.

I start to agree with P54 in a way, when he says not all recent products have been a home run (who could deny that?) and that essentially without failure, Honda cannot find its footing and reach for the next achievement. Also that in trying to regain their footing, they have overreached (see decontenting Civic, unceremoniously shoving their mojo into the Supplies closet).

But yes, I think he does try to hide the negatives. He relegates any criticism of Honda to "griping" and in doing so attempts to forgive the fact there are too few examples of 6AT-equipped models, absolutely no 8000rpm thrill rides, missing 6MTs with each passing year (to streamline manufacturing/assembly), and, here's the doozies, "just because" some models lack the right plastics... I guess that's one way of saying 'outright sucks'... or [because some models lack] design does not make Honda a sudden looser [sic]. That's P54 sneaking in some pretty important things to people. We sit inside our cars to drive them. And who wants to spend twenty five thousand dollars on a dog's dinner? Design is actually important. I don't think TOV expects Pininfarina design, but not reminding people of a Dodge Neon or Toyota Corolla, or in the case of the 2013 Accord Coupe Concept, a 2008 Accord Coupe, would help.

Yes, I'm so negative. Hondarulez, man, I was at the point you're at, I dunno, 3 or 4 years ago, something like that. The, 'why is Honda doing this' and trying to reason it out with an optimistic approach. Maybe it's just because of how long I've been following them (which is no time at all compared to a lot of folks), and the timing of that period, if that makes sense. Around to be aware of and partake in the glory years, to learn of the even glorier years before that, and to witness the failings of the late oughts. I don't want to focus on the negative. So where is the positive - for enthusiasts? It's NOT electric cars.
HondaFan1990
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Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 18:58
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330R wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:

No, it's fine I saw it. I was just wondering. I've been reading posts on here for about 4 months. I've seen it all. Thanks for the welcome. But what is suspicious about my posting? Interesting is good I guess, but why suspicious? I'm not here to send any propaganda or a hidden agenda from Honda or anything like that. If that were the case, I would need to be on Honda's payroll and I've yet to see a check or direct deposit from Honda paying me haha I'm just discussing Honda...



It should be taken as a compliment, I'd say. You're knowledgeable in a sense more than a lot of people your age, about eh, I guess the later years of Honda's glory era. I haven't seen you cross post across three forums (like I've seen the OP do) something that screams PR, so no I don't think you're spreading propaganda ;)


:D Well thank you for the compliment.

And Hondarulez has the right idea. Acknowledge the negative, but let's not forgot about the positive as if nothing's good the company is doing.
CarPhreakD
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Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 19:46
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Powered by Honda wrote:
the future looks grim and boring.


For once I absolutely agree. It looks like from 2015-2025 at least, it's turning into a period of automotive suck. Like the 70's all over again. Screw it, I'm going back to motorcycles.
TonyEX
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Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 19:55
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I put my name on the Fit EV mailing list.

The car fits my new driving profile to a T. I would likely only have to charge it once a week (to "top it off").

Electric solar panels.. Honda Soltec. I've been following them for a while but they have not brought them to the States. AHM "said" they would | wanted to do it (long story here, it actually gets very close to me) but they have done zilch, nada, idiots...

Meanwhile the Chinese are flooding the market.

AHM needs a kick in the cojones and HMC one in the pants.

I mean, yes, this stuff is wonderful, it really is.

But, they should release a least one model with an 8000 RPM redline, a loud exhaust and iVTEC on both cams.

Don't you think? Just to show Kia who's boss and to keep Peter Cunningham happy?
TonyEX
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Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 20:06
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If you don't stop your crusade I'm going to put his

http://www.turbowhistler.net/blow-off-valve/index.htm

in my Civic Hybrid, come looking for you in your outdated Si and humiliate you as I punch the gas, keep the engine at redline and do pop offs like the IRL cars were doing yesterday right in front of our seat.

If you go faster.. irrelevant.. I'll just tell people that my 350 bhp Civic needs a new pop off valve.

(I just hope my 1.3L puts out enough exhaust to drive it)
notyper
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Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 20:07
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Just to comment on the whole engines thing, I'd like to point out some examples of pretty stellar engines that the competition is offering. These engines show that you can still offer high revving engines that are full of character and performance, and do so at a price that is still within reach of the average buyer:

1. Ford Coyote V8. A 5 liter engine (625cc/cylinder), the basic version is available for as little as $30k in the Mustang GT. It uses DOHC, VVT on both intake and exhaust, and port injection. It produces 412 (now 420 hp) and revs to 7000 rpm. It is reliable, powerful and a very fun engine to drive. In the spirit of Honda's former Type-R improvements, a version of this engine is offered in the Boss 302 model ($40k) which produces 444 hp and revs to 7500 rpm. Both engines will easily accomodate an additional 500 rpm of revs if so desired, but don't necessarily produce any more power in doing so. This is a really good engine, and revs like no sub-$50k large displacement V8 has any right to.

2. Nissan VQ37VHR. 3.7 liters (616cc/cyl). This is Nissan's current high end workhorse V6. Found in the Nissan 370Z ($31k starting), the Infiniti G37 and M37, and I think one other model. Basic versions are rated at 328-332 hp and rev limit at 7600 rpm. The Nismo version (which may just be an ECU flash) is rated at 350 hp and rev limits at 7700 rpm (these are actual values in the ECU - redline is set at 7500 on the tach, both engines will rev safely to 8000 rpm). It uses DOHC with VVEL, which is infinitely variable lift, duration and phasing, along with port injection and a dual throttle body, split intake manifold. Probably the last of the VQs, it is reliable, revs quite easily, produces a lot of power, and has finally gotten the fuel efficiency of the VQ lineup into line with the competition. It's still a bit vibratory, but that's been a VQ issue for years. It's probably better suited to the Z than the Infiniti lineup, but it's a strong, fun engine.

Aside from these two examples (which I chose because they are pretty affordable), the new Subaru/Toyota 2.0 flat four looks pretty good. Rev limit is set at 7500 rpm, produces 100 hp/liter, and has a nice flat torque curve (except for a hole at 3500-4500 rpm). Certainly not a K20 (it seems a bit torquier down low, but the K20, even rated the same, pulls away up top), but hey, this is a brand new engine designed to rev relatively high. The current 4cyl in the Miata is also decent. Only 170 hp (same hp/L as the 2012 Civic Si K24 - 589cc/cyl), but a 7500 rpm rev limiter as well.

The point being that is Ford, Nissan, Subaru, Toyota and Mazda can all offer these 7500+ rpm engines that meet emissions specs, then certainly, if they wanted to, the engine masters at Honda could still be giving us high revving engines that produce stellar power, low emissions and fuel economy. I'm not ready to say that when it comes to NA engine expertise that the engineers at Ford and Nissan have surpassed the Honda guys. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd like to believe that choice, not inability, is the reason for Honda's disappointing engine direction. I've grown to appreciate the VQ37VHR in my G37 - it's a good solid engine that has been bulletproof for me, but I'd much rather have a smoother, more fuel efficient, more powerful (and even higher revving) version from Honda.

I think this last statement reflects the disappoinment best. So many of us have bought cars from other companies here, yet we'd much rather be able to buy a similar car from Honda that is competitive feature/spec wise, yet offers Honda-ness. They just won't make one for us.

SC
330R
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Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 20:07
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They should bring the Fit Hybrid and Fit EV, post-haste.

And a Fit Si with a K18 :D
TonyEX
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Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 20:13
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330R wrote:
They should bring the Fit Hybrid and Fit EV, post-haste.

And a Fit Si with a K18 :D



LOL... yesterday, during a yellow flag in the race (all the cars bunched up at the other end of the track) my wife and I agreed that a 140bhp/MT6/rear discs Fit Si would be the ticket.

Got to love such a woman, huh? (*)

They could perhaps put in the multi link rear suspension of the Fit EV..

(*) Except when she races me. For some reason, she won't race anyone else, but with me... dang it! And me, like a fool, I always let her drive the faster car.

330R
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Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 20:15
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TonyE wrote:
If you don't stop your crusade I'm going to put his

http://www.turbowhistler.net/blow-off-valve/index.htm

in my Civic Hybrid, come looking for you in your outdated Si and humiliate you as I punch the gas, keep the engine at redline and do pop offs like the IRL cars were doing yesterday right in front of our seat.

If you go faster.. irrelevant.. I'll just tell people that my 350 bhp Civic needs a new pop off valve.

(I just hope my 1.3L puts out enough exhaust to drive it)



I bow to your BOV :bowdown: Still think you need the SoundRacer for some Americana soundtrack in your mean green machine. (see your thread in the Civic forum)
TonyEX
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Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 20:19
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Shawn...

Those engines are fine, but they use up a lot of fuel and are on expensive cars.

If you think about it, the best Honda engines were small buzzbombs in cars that a kid right out of college could afford (if not the insurance).

That's what made Honda of old so fun, they were relatively cheap and offered gobs and gobs of run... and nuts like you could get ridiculous amounts of power out of them without blowing them or the bank.

That's why I think the future of Honda is again in small engines. It has always been in small engines.

The IRL is back to small engines... the famed Honda F1 engines were tiny buzz bombs... the best Honda motorcycles had redlines that were beyond nosebleed, they were up there into Honda Jet territory, oxygen mask required!
notyper
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Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 20:40
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$30k is not expensive these days Tony. In fact, inflation adjusted, $30k today is what my 1994 GS-R would have cost.

And these are indeed big engines. 3.7 liter V6, 5 liter V8, but there are also a couple of 2 liters there. There is no reason, other than a specific internal choice, that Honda couldn't continue to offer powertrains with the character and performance so many of us love. Seriously, Ford can offer a 5.0 liter V8 in a $30k muscle car with that sort of performance that still passes emissions, but we can't get a 220-240 hp 4cyl in a $25k Civic?

Shit, I can get a $22k Mustang V6 with a 300 hp V6 on 87 octane that revs to 7000 rpm. Or for $26k you can get a full performance and tech package V6 with uprated suspension, 19" wheels and all that jazz. I'm not a big fan of Mustangs and the way they drive (with the acknowledgement that a V6 Mustang will spank a Civic Si around any sort of road course, autocross, etc.), but c'mon, if Ford can do that and still pass emissions laws, Honda needs to pull their thumbs out and get with the program!

SC
danielgr
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Re: The new Honda of the future    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 20:41
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Just pointing out that, despite all the great intentions Honda may show/claim, the reality is that right now in Japan the solar-panel_EV combo is marketed so that:
1) You sell 100% of your solar pannel output to the utilities, which are forced to pay you for it at a premium rate using everyone else's money.
2) Power your car with grid electricity, right now made up from gas/oil/coal at over 90%, one of the dirtiest in the world.
3) Keep the ability to power some of your home stuff with the solar pannels in case a disaster cuts you from the grid.

Why? It's pretty simple, people buying those aren't so much thinking about saving the planet as of making good business with a decent return on investment.
I'll believe in both their green credentials and the "saving the planet crap" the day they start paying for their own "green energy" from their pockets instead of using mine and that of the vast majority of people that cannot afford to make such 10years investments on "green paper" (well, in Japan bank notes aren't green, but ...).


Last edited by danielgr on 04-16-2012 20:43
 
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