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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda

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Torque
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Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-13-2012 21:39
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TonyE wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
The last Honda that was "that good" was the 8th generation Si, offering a perfect balance of everything...

Every single Honda that's come out then has been missing one or two elements that keep them from being exceptional, above the crowd. ...


Even the new RLX, with a powertrain that reminds me a lot of the old Honda of world class engineering, has its challenges (it looks too conservative and still has proportions that could use work;



Actually I love the Civic GX and Clarity.

I also think the "cleaned up" TL and the upcoming RLX are very good.

The RLX, in particular, is chock full of very interesting technology and is wrapped in a nicely conservative skin. The proper course for its price point. Edginess in that market is best left for Cadillac and the BLING crowd, but will never gather real respect from the old money, only derision.

And of course.. YOU ALL IGNORE THE FIT!!!!




Man, I've been saying for years the Fit is the car Honda should be building around. All the elements are in place and everything they need is available in the parts bin. Honda really needs to have different iterations moving forward when it is redesigned and manufactured in Mexico.

The Fit would do even better with more than the standard model. A worthwhile upgrade would be an optional and more powerful engine, better suspension, brakes, wheels, etc. Not necessarily a Fit Si but maybe with the 1.8 four cranking out 160-175 hp. Then, bring in the hybrid Fit and kill the Insight. The electric Fit is already being delivered to west coast customers.

Honda may be messing up the rest of their lineup, not including the CRV, but at least they've got the Fit right. They just need to expand on it.
WongKN
Profile for WongKN
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-13-2012 21:57
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A question about this article. It published in a japanese business journal. Is the original written in japanese and this one a translation ? Who translated it ? It seems to be very well written and usually an article originally written in japanese do not translate well to english, at least not to this level of quality. But the contents of the article do seem like it is talking with relation to the JDM.

At this point in time, it seems to me that Honda, or at least its senior executives, are hell bent on pissing off their enthusiasts and hardcore fan base. First it was that guy Conrad who very clearly said they are moving focus to the Gen Y'ers, so loyal Honda supporters, you can all go jump the lake for all he cares. Now we have another one who is blaming the media and indirectly enthusiasts and fans for basically being dellusional. I.e. Honda wasn't what we said they were in the past. We just dreamt it up. It was hype and all the fault of the media.

It's all very confusing. Just a few weeks ago when I attended the Honda Jazz Hybrid launch, I was introduced to the LPL as a 'extremely important person', because I am a loyal Honda supporter and my website represents Honda's enthusiasts fans. The whole local management was very excited when I suggested a 'meet the fans session' by organising a visit to their plant at Melaka. But the more 'official' message from above in all these interviews seems to be so very different... Maybe this attitude hasn't yet filter down to the working level... (being sarcastic here). I think Jeff might be getting a similar kind of mixed messages as well ?
Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 00:05
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HondaFan1990 wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
A quick question for HondaFan1990, and not trying to be smart.
Is 1990 your birth year?

I bought my first Honda, a Civic S in 1984 and back then you were put on a waiting list. I think it took a couple of months before my new Civic showed up at the dealer!



Yup, November 1990 is my birth year. :)


Well, that quiet sound right there is a few folks feeling old right now. I have at least one pair of shoes older than HF90. My local Honda dealer could only get a few of the '84 Civics each month and those they did get in stock received a $1500 market charge. You could choose any color for your 3-door as long as it was blue or silver. That was when a CRX stickered at $7500. I ended up buying a Dat/San.

First, Honda has never outperformed any brand in the US market place in the strictest sense of performance. The concept actually alluded to here is simply that of engineering. A friend had both a '78 Civic wagon and an '83 Civic wagon which reminded me of sewing machines because of the precision of the craftwork performed on the engines and the feel of the manual shifters. Good engineering which goes into automobiles doesn't necessarily produce the most powerful, best handling cars but rather cars that perform properly for their intended tasks. Think about what exactly a modern Civic is designed to do for its owner.

Secondly, Hondas were never low priced automobiles in the US. An '85 Civic 3dr stickered for almost $6000 which went a long way toward buying most any small GM, Ford or Chrysler product, and a comparably equipped Escort was $1000 cheaper. A '90 Civic Si was in the ballpark of $11,000 when you could buy a 5.0 Mustang for a bit over $13,000.

I wonder where the strong enthusiasm for older Honda products comes from. I've always found Honda products interesting because of the engineering expertise employed in their development. My first Integra was no BMW and, heck, no one today really cares at all about a 1990 BMW anymore anyway. I think Honda had their act together best during the early 1990s though before they felt the need to build market share in the US by becoming an Americanized car company. The first surprise for me was, having driven a few '90-'93 Accords, finding how soft and un-sporty the '94 Accord sedan was. I think many of us formed our opinions about Honda from what we knew of the Honda cars from the '80s and early '90s. I also think that had Honda stuck to its guns with expertly crafted small, sporty economy cars they would have gone bankrupt ten years ago. Without the V6 engine famiiles, the CRV and Pilot, the Odyssey, and the Acuras such as the 2nd and 3rd gen TL Honda would have been swallowed up by a sea of SUVs, HP numbers, leather seats, Bluetooth, power options, etc. Much of what passes for a car today has little foundation in engineering practicality. No surprise then that a company run by engineers might struggle with understanding what the public wants to buy.



DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 00:58
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Build it. We buy it.


NealX
Profile for NealX
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 01:58
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superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 04:34
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Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 06:28
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WongKN wrote:
A question about this article. It published in a japanese business journal. Is the original written in japanese and this one a translation ? Who translated it ? It seems to be very well written and usually an article originally written in japanese do not translate well to english, at least not to this level of quality. But the contents of the article do seem like it is talking with relation to the JDM.

At this point in time, it seems to me that Honda, or at least its senior executives, are hell bent on pissing off their enthusiasts and hardcore fan base. First it was that guy Conrad who very clearly said they are moving focus to the Gen Y'ers, so loyal Honda supporters, you can all go jump the lake for all he cares. Now we have another one who is blaming the media and indirectly enthusiasts and fans for basically being dellusional. I.e. Honda wasn't what we said they were in the past. We just dreamt it up. It was hype and all the fault of the media.

It's all very confusing. Just a few weeks ago when I attended the Honda Jazz Hybrid launch, I was introduced to the LPL as a 'extremely important person', because I am a loyal Honda supporter and my website represents Honda's enthusiasts fans. The whole local management was very excited when I suggested a 'meet the fans session' by organising a visit to their plant at Melaka. But the more 'official' message from above in all these interviews seems to be so very different... Maybe this attitude hasn't yet filter down to the working level... (being sarcastic here). I think Jeff might be getting a similar kind of mixed messages as well ?



Now I'm confused.

I got the feeling it was the engineers who all wanted to make pocket racers & the senior management wanted to make delivery vans.

The former had all been locked in cupboards, but escaped by ramming the doors with a new e-NSX...
HondaFan1990
Profile for HondaFan1990
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 14:08
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Grace141 wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
A quick question for HondaFan1990, and not trying to be smart.
Is 1990 your birth year?

I bought my first Honda, a Civic S in 1984 and back then you were put on a waiting list. I think it took a couple of months before my new Civic showed up at the dealer!



Yup, November 1990 is my birth year. :)


Well, that quiet sound right there is a few folks feeling old right now. I have at least one pair of shoes older than HF90. My local Honda dealer could only get a few of the '84 Civics each month and those they did get in stock received a $1500 market charge. You could choose any color for your 3-door as long as it was blue or silver. That was when a CRX stickered at $7500. I ended up buying a Dat/San.

First, Honda has never outperformed any brand in the US market place in the strictest sense of performance. The concept actually alluded to here is simply that of engineering. A friend had both a '78 Civic wagon and an '83 Civic wagon which reminded me of sewing machines because of the precision of the craftwork performed on the engines and the feel of the manual shifters. Good engineering which goes into automobiles doesn't necessarily produce the most powerful, best handling cars but rather cars that perform properly for their intended tasks. Think about what exactly a modern Civic is designed to do for its owner.

Secondly, Hondas were never low priced automobiles in the US. An '85 Civic 3dr stickered for almost $6000 which went a long way toward buying most any small GM, Ford or Chrysler product, and a comparably equipped Escort was $1000 cheaper. A '90 Civic Si was in the ballpark of $11,000 when you could buy a 5.0 Mustang for a bit over $13,000.

I wonder where the strong enthusiasm for older Honda products comes from. I've always found Honda products interesting because of the engineering expertise employed in their development. My first Integra was no BMW and, heck, no one today really cares at all about a 1990 BMW anymore anyway. I think Honda had their act together best during the early 1990s though before they felt the need to build market share in the US by becoming an Americanized car company. The first surprise for me was, having driven a few '90-'93 Accords, finding how soft and un-sporty the '94 Accord sedan was. I think many of us formed our opinions about Honda from what we knew of the Honda cars from the '80s and early '90s. I also think that had Honda stuck to its guns with expertly crafted small, sporty economy cars they would have gone bankrupt ten years ago. Without the V6 engine famiiles, the CRV and Pilot, the Odyssey, and the Acuras such as the 2nd and 3rd gen TL Honda would have been swallowed up by a sea of SUVs, HP numbers, leather seats, Bluetooth, power options, etc. Much of what passes for a car today has little foundation in engineering practicality. No surprise then that a company run by engineers might struggle with understanding what the public wants to buy.






I remember reading an article somewhere stating that Honda shifted from a Japanese company that builds cars in American to an "American" car company that just so happens to be from Japan and based there. I can see what you're saying. I can see where you're coming from. Say Honda did stay with just the Accord, Civic and Prelude formula they had for a long time and the Integra, Vigor and Legend lineup on the Acura side, they probably would've been gone a long time ago. They had to shift in order to stay alive. They were only gonna make but so much money on 3 product lines. And they are a company after all so profits come first. No profits, no cars. Mazda, now, has always kept their "soul", but look at the position they're in. They're in financial trouble. I wouldn't want Honda to be in that predicament....everyone has had to adapt and change or they fade away...
MarkR
Profile for MarkR
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 14:21
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Many times I feel like that Honda knows something most companies doesn't know, or they know they failed superbly and cannot catch up any longer.

It's just fantastic, we all live on the same earth and one company (Honda) claims that people doesn't want cars any longer but space boxes where you can fit your dog and grandma and move the seats around... then some other company believe that if we create good,great exciting cars there will be business...

I have no clue who is right, but it makes for exciting reading...

Audi: New DSG titanium-super quick shifts and radical turbo mpg performance...

Honda: Car area long gone, in the new google appliance area we can fit a dog and your grandma and you can google while you are slowly transported to your destination...



HondaFan1990
Profile for HondaFan1990
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 16:20
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MarkR wrote:
Many times I feel like that Honda knows something most companies doesn't know, or they know they failed superbly and cannot catch up any longer.

It's just fantastic, we all live on the same earth and one company (Honda) claims that people doesn't want cars any longer but space boxes where you can fit your dog and grandma and move the seats around... then some other company believe that if we create good,great exciting cars there will be business...

I have no clue who is right, but it makes for exciting reading...

Audi: New DSG titanium-super quick shifts and radical turbo mpg performance...

Honda: Car area long gone, in the new google appliance area we can fit a dog and your grandma and you can google while you are slowly transported to your destination...






Could you elaborate on how Honda has "failed superbly"? I can see some misguided mistakes, but failure? Failure would be going bankrupt or out of business or something IMO, which Honda hasn't done.....or at least not to my knowledge.
superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 17:19
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MarkR wrote:
Many times I feel like that Honda knows something most companies doesn't know, or they know they failed superbly and cannot catch up any longer.

It's just fantastic, we all live on the same earth and one company (Honda) claims that people doesn't want cars any longer but space boxes where you can fit your dog and grandma and move the seats around... then some other company believe that if we create good,great exciting cars there will be business...

I have no clue who is right, but it makes for exciting reading...

Audi: New DSG titanium-super quick shifts and radical turbo mpg performance...

Honda: Car area long gone, in the new google appliance area we can fit a dog and your grandma and you can google while you are slowly transported to your destination...





It kind of sounds like you are writing Honda off. With the recent introductions of the excellent CRV and RDX, we know Honda/Acura still has the ability to design a great car.

I think that perhaps they need to spend more time developing conventional cars for today and less time on futuristic transport. The upcoming 2013 Earth Dreams Accord might give us an insight as to whether Honda has the ability to be a front runner or an also-ran

HondaFan1990
Profile for HondaFan1990
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 20:31
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Varmint wrote:
Neal wrote:
Your arguments seems to be based on the "what if?" notion that the innovations of the past either never existed or could have been complete failures. Yet we know for a FACT that they were complete successes! They happened. They are real.

That's some odd time-travel to make a point and completely denies the Spirit of Honda. I'm actually pretty surprised by this.

And yes, without VTEC, there wouldn't be a temple of anything...

"Trying" is not enough. If I was designing a project for a client, its success would not be determined by how hard I "tried." An idea that "succeeds" can happen in 5 seconds. Just as easily, one can fail after 5 months or five years.

Because I invested more time in pursuing a failure makes it even more tragic because I lacked that transcendental moment of insight and big-picture vision to see an idea in the greater context of my future goal.

Perhaps the "goal" has been moved.


You're right about about failure being more tragic when greater time and effort are expended. Success is not always about effort. (Which was my point.) It isn't necessarily about pursuing the right course of action. Sometimes the best plans hinge on one small detail. There's a fine line between success and failure. You're quite right about that.

Which all begs the question; was Honda's success in the 80's and 90's anything more than one or two small details? Are these lackluster years anything more than one of two projects missing their mark? That could be all that separates the Honda of old with the company we have now.

Instead of looking for that fine line, we have all this abstract talk of mojo, DNA, identity, and the ghost of Soichiro.



Varmint,

Your last line brings up a very good point. It seems as if so much thinking and logic surrounding Honda lately is about their "past" self. What used to be sold, what used to have this or that, who used to run the company. You don't hear anything about the here and now Honda. We should look at why something has gone wrong and what can be done to fix it. It really gets pretty receptive when one keeps harboring about cars Honda used to make in the 80s, 90s and 00s. WE get it. Those cars were good. Now, they're discontinued. Let's look at the current lineup and see what we can do to better our situation.

And we also need to realize Honda is in the business of making money. They're not into catering to a small demographic in all honesty. They want profits. They want a piece of every pie they can possibly get. The addition of SUVs, trucks and minivans has been a wonderful thing for Honda. Selling the Accord, Civic and Prelude were only gonna get them but so far.
Jovian8
Profile for Jovian8
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 21:53
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I cannot help but think of another favorite brand from the past ---Sony.

All my electronic stuff used to be Sony... they were the innovators. Best Trinitron TV... I kept my first one for over 20 years and handed it down to my son. Beta tape was better than VHS but they lost the format war. The Walkman, the Discman.

Slowly but surely... the competition caught up. Now Sony is largely irrelevant, barely hanging on. They just laid off thousands last week.

Honda situation has the same 'feel' ?




P54
Profile for P54
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 22:34
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I have a Sony Trinitron from 1988, 24 years old, and to my eyes it is not lacking anything in regard to picture quality compared to the newest TV sets. Maybe on the spec. sheet, however when it comes to what I see it still amazes me how the Trinitron of old still have sharp pictures, excellent quality and colors.
RocketRon
Profile for RocketRon
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-14-2012 22:47
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HondaFan1990 wrote:

Varmint,

Your last line brings up a very good point. It seems as if so much thinking and logic surrounding Honda lately is about their "past" self. What used to be sold, what used to have this or that, who used to run the company. You don't hear anything about the here and now Honda. We should look at why something has gone wrong and what can be done to fix it. It really gets pretty receptive when one keeps harboring about cars Honda used to make in the 80s, 90s and 00s. WE get it. Those cars were good. Now, they're discontinued. Let's look at the current lineup and see what we can do to better our situation.

And we also need to realize Honda is in the business of making money. They're not into catering to a small demographic in all honesty. They want profits. They want a piece of every pie they can possibly get. The addition of SUVs, trucks and minivans has been a wonderful thing for Honda. Selling the Accord, Civic and Prelude were only gonna get them but so far.



The NSX was amazing because it showed the world that an exotic car could be reliable.

Hence, it solidified Honda's reputation for reliability and increased overall sales.

Innovative halo cars provide growth and healthy long term profit. I fail to understand how this can be denied.

Actually, focusing on cost cutting to increase profit on generic products while taking advantage of a reputation that was built on innovation and saying it's the past...is quite arrogant.
A77
Profile for A77
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-15-2012 01:26
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P54 wrote:
I have a Sony Trinitron from 1988, 24 years old, and to my eyes it is not lacking anything in regard to picture quality compared to the newest TV sets. Maybe on the spec. sheet, however when it comes to what I see it still amazes me how the Trinitron of old still have sharp pictures, excellent quality and colors.


In terms of color accuracy and black levels crt tvs are still very hard to beat Sony's trinitron system was a brilliant invention and gave Sony, more than anything else in its history a quality reputation - it was patent protected till the late 90s. Modern LCD screens (that includes the LED lit ones) are brighter and have perfect geometry, but are inferior to CRTs in other respects. Plasmas are hard to beat. Tube TVs also have good sound compared to their flat screen successors.

Maybe Honda's trinitron was VTEC and others have caught up. It was this single innovation backed up by functional design that led to so much success, in both cases, and enabled higher prices. Sony like Honda has no standout innovation now - even if they both make some great individual products.
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-15-2012 02:36
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Sony's problem wasn't just that it ceded dominance in the innovation arena (see: Walkman vs. iPod), it's also quality that took a big hit; and I am convinced at this point that while (relatively stodgy) Panasonic still builds high quality products, Sony delivers a lot of crap a lot of the time. Their product lines are also fragmented: whereas competitors would come in with 3-4 cameras in a certain model line, Sony would come up with 12 that did almost the exact same thing. They would also dabble in everything from TVs to alarm clocks, which compromised their company focus... not to mention that these separate divisions had a hard time interacting with each other to come up with meaningful integrated products (See: Playstation branding with Sony's mobile and home theater divisions).

Sony does have an edge in Bravia LED tvs (best in the business, though expensive; Panasonic makes the best Plasmas); they have the Playstation brand, and they have a pretty successful mobile group. The one thing they need to do is simply focus on R&D and product, something that Honda needs to do as well.
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-15-2012 02:37
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TonyE wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
The last Honda that was "that good" was the 8th generation Si, offering a perfect balance of everything...

Every single Honda that's come out then has been missing one or two elements that keep them from being exceptional, above the crowd. ...


Even the new RLX, with a powertrain that reminds me a lot of the old Honda of world class engineering, has its challenges (it looks too conservative and still has proportions that could use work;



Actually I love the Civic GX and Clarity.

I also think the "cleaned up" TL and the upcoming RLX are very good.

The RLX, in particular, is chock full of very interesting technology and is wrapped in a nicely conservative skin. The proper course for its price point. Edginess in that market is best left for Cadillac and the BLING crowd, but will never gather real respect from the old money, only derision.

And of course.. YOU ALL IGNORE THE FIT!!!!




The Fit came out around the time as the 8th gen Civic, come to think of it. The second gen is a refinement of that Formula... not bad, at least it didn't go backwards...
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-15-2012 02:38
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Nick Graves wrote:
WongKN wrote:
A question about this article. It published in a japanese business journal. Is the original written in japanese and this one a translation ? Who translated it ? It seems to be very well written and usually an article originally written in japanese do not translate well to english, at least not to this level of quality. But the contents of the article do seem like it is talking with relation to the JDM.

At this point in time, it seems to me that Honda, or at least its senior executives, are hell bent on pissing off their enthusiasts and hardcore fan base. First it was that guy Conrad who very clearly said they are moving focus to the Gen Y'ers, so loyal Honda supporters, you can all go jump the lake for all he cares. Now we have another one who is blaming the media and indirectly enthusiasts and fans for basically being dellusional. I.e. Honda wasn't what we said they were in the past. We just dreamt it up. It was hype and all the fault of the media.

It's all very confusing. Just a few weeks ago when I attended the Honda Jazz Hybrid launch, I was introduced to the LPL as a 'extremely important person', because I am a loyal Honda supporter and my website represents Honda's enthusiasts fans. The whole local management was very excited when I suggested a 'meet the fans session' by organising a visit to their plant at Melaka. But the more 'official' message from above in all these interviews seems to be so very different... Maybe this attitude hasn't yet filter down to the working level... (being sarcastic here). I think Jeff might be getting a similar kind of mixed messages as well ?



Now I'm confused.

I got the feeling it was the engineers who all wanted to make pocket racers & the senior management wanted to make delivery vans.

The former had all been locked in cupboards, but escaped by ramming the doors with a new e-NSX...



A lot of it probably has to do with the different divisions. I'm sure if you talked to Honda's HPD department, they'd be very enthusiastic and have a keen ear to what enthusiasts have to say as well...
HondaFan1990
Profile for HondaFan1990
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-15-2012 02:55
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RocketRon wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:

Varmint,

Your last line brings up a very good point. It seems as if so much thinking and logic surrounding Honda lately is about their "past" self. What used to be sold, what used to have this or that, who used to run the company. You don't hear anything about the here and now Honda. We should look at why something has gone wrong and what can be done to fix it. It really gets pretty receptive when one keeps harboring about cars Honda used to make in the 80s, 90s and 00s. WE get it. Those cars were good. Now, they're discontinued. Let's look at the current lineup and see what we can do to better our situation.

And we also need to realize Honda is in the business of making money. They're not into catering to a small demographic in all honesty. They want profits. They want a piece of every pie they can possibly get. The addition of SUVs, trucks and minivans has been a wonderful thing for Honda. Selling the Accord, Civic and Prelude were only gonna get them but so far.



The NSX was amazing because it showed the world that an exotic car could be reliable.

Hence, it solidified Honda's reputation for reliability and increased overall sales.

Innovative halo cars provide growth and healthy long term profit. I fail to understand how this can be denied.

Actually, focusing on cost cutting to increase profit on generic products while taking advantage of a reputation that was built on innovation and saying it's the past...is quite arrogant.



I respectfully disagree. The NSX was and still is a wonderful vehicle, but the Accords, Civic and whatever else was selling at the time brought in the money to make them. Honda needs to focus on money makers and then niche products. This pedestal of perfection that once was Honda is not where they need to be placed. This is the reason why I don't think anyone can move forward. Like I said before, when Honda messes up, the world doesn't know how to react. So the past keeps getting brought up. I think this was asked before, but was Honda really that good or was what they were doing at the time so genius that people built them up as larger then life? Have some on here tell it, Honda was thee best thing since sliced bread and cheese in their prime. Making a car now is different than making a car then. A lot more factors are involved. I still fail to see how this part is being denied. All we keep hearing about is Honda's past. Honda's bigger now than they were in the past. There's more than three main product lines now under the Honda umbrella. Honda is by no means perfect, but the way they keep getting bashed as if nothing they're doing currently is right is very over sensationalized IMHO.
Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-15-2012 11:23
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Sony does have an edge in Bravia LED tvs (best in the business, though expensive; Panasonic makes the best Plasmas); they have the Playstation brand, and they have a pretty successful mobile group. The one thing they need to do is simply focus on R&D and product, something that Honda needs to do as well.

Sony at the moment has leading edge products in the upper price ranges of its product lines. I researched TVs for five or six years and found Sony had the tech I wanted just last year. Their field-LED lit panel tech combined with the Motion Flow software make their >$2k US TVs the best on the market, in my opinion. I think the Internet app portal software used by Sony is better than that used by Samsung. I think the higher end A/V gear is comparable to other brands.

The comparison to Honda is interesting in that the higher end Honda/Acura cars have cutting edge tech and are some of the best products in their segments
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-15-2012 11:45
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Grace141 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Sony does have an edge in Bravia LED tvs (best in the business, though expensive; Panasonic makes the best Plasmas); they have the Playstation brand, and they have a pretty successful mobile group. The one thing they need to do is simply focus on R&D and product, something that Honda needs to do as well.

Sony at the moment has leading edge products in the upper price ranges of its product lines. I researched TVs for five or six years and found Sony had the tech I wanted just last year. Their field-LED lit panel tech combined with the Motion Flow software make their >$2k US TVs the best on the market, in my opinion. I think the Internet app portal software used by Sony is better than that used by Samsung. I think the higher end A/V gear is comparable to other brands.

The comparison to Honda is interesting in that the higher end Honda/Acura cars have cutting edge tech and are some of the best products in their segments



I agree, Sony does have a huge lead in the upper-crust of their Bravia lineup- sort of a modern Trinitron. I guess the main concern for Sony is the fact that their lower end Bravia lineup is overshadowed by the Korean competitors, as they could offer either more features or slightly better LCDs for around the same price. Or just really low prices in general.
Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-15-2012 12:03
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Sony does have an edge in Bravia LED tvs (best in the business, though expensive; Panasonic makes the best Plasmas); they have the Playstation brand, and they have a pretty successful mobile group. The one thing they need to do is simply focus on R&D and product, something that Honda needs to do as well.

Sony at the moment has leading edge products in the upper price ranges of its product lines. I researched TVs for five or six years and found Sony had the tech I wanted just last year. Their field-LED lit panel tech combined with the Motion Flow software make their >$2k US TVs the best on the market, in my opinion. I think the Internet app portal software used by Sony is better than that used by Samsung. I think the higher end A/V gear is comparable to other brands.

The comparison to Honda is interesting in that the higher end Honda/Acura cars have cutting edge tech and are some of the best products in their segments



I agree, Sony does have a huge lead in the upper-crust of their Bravia lineup- sort of a modern Trinitron. I guess the main concern for Sony is the fact that their lower end Bravia lineup is overshadowed by the Korean competitors, as they could offer either more features or slightly better LCDs for around the same price. Or just really low prices in general.


Sounds very familiar there, doesn't it? I was floored by the performance of the high end >46-inch Sony TVs with their 240hz and 480hz software. Samsung was not even close. The 55-inch TV I looked at was $2900 US though. Strangely, there haven't been many advancements in those TVs during the past 18-months or so other than built-in WiFi and 3D.

The 42-inch Bravia I picked running perimeter-LED backlighting and 1080p/24P BD movies is astonishingly good. This thread twist made me think of it as the MDX of TVs.
RocketRon
Profile for RocketRon
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-15-2012 22:32
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HondaFan1990 wrote:
RocketRon wrote:
HondaFan1990 wrote:

Varmint,

Your last line brings up a very good point. It seems as if so much thinking and logic surrounding Honda lately is about their "past" self. What used to be sold, what used to have this or that, who used to run the company. You don't hear anything about the here and now Honda. We should look at why something has gone wrong and what can be done to fix it. It really gets pretty receptive when one keeps harboring about cars Honda used to make in the 80s, 90s and 00s. WE get it. Those cars were good. Now, they're discontinued. Let's look at the current lineup and see what we can do to better our situation.

And we also need to realize Honda is in the business of making money. They're not into catering to a small demographic in all honesty. They want profits. They want a piece of every pie they can possibly get. The addition of SUVs, trucks and minivans has been a wonderful thing for Honda. Selling the Accord, Civic and Prelude were only gonna get them but so far.



The NSX was amazing because it showed the world that an exotic car could be reliable.

Hence, it solidified Honda's reputation for reliability and increased overall sales.

Innovative halo cars provide growth and healthy long term profit. I fail to understand how this can be denied.

Actually, focusing on cost cutting to increase profit on generic products while taking advantage of a reputation that was built on innovation and saying it's the past...is quite arrogant.



I respectfully disagree. The NSX was and still is a wonderful vehicle, but the Accords, Civic and whatever else was selling at the time brought in the money to make them. Honda needs to focus on money makers and then niche products. This pedestal of perfection that once was Honda is not where they need to be placed. This is the reason why I don't think anyone can move forward. Like I said before, when Honda messes up, the world doesn't know how to react. So the past keeps getting brought up. I think this was asked before, but was Honda really that good or was what they were doing at the time so genius that people built them up as larger then life? Have some on here tell it, Honda was thee best thing since sliced bread and cheese in their prime. Making a car now is different than making a car then. A lot more factors are involved. I still fail to see how this part is being denied. All we keep hearing about is Honda's past. Honda's bigger now than they were in the past. There's more than three main product lines now under the Honda umbrella. Honda is by no means perfect, but the way they keep getting bashed as if nothing they're doing currently is right is very over sensationalized IMHO.



Wishing I had more time to reply but I'll focus on your last phrase:

''Honda is by no means perfect, but the way they keep getting bashed as if nothing they're doing currently is right is very over sensationalized IMHO.''

ToV participants are not saying Honda doesn't make good products as 99% percent of them ARE Honda Fans. What they are trying to communicate is that there are no current Honda vehicules that allow them to get excited!

Forgive them for being so passionnate about the recent end of the critically acclaimed and beloved K20 8th gen Si, it's a fresh wound.

Hopefully, the upcoming NSX will help with the healing process. By the way, considering your are 21 years old, I must admit that I am impressed by your knowledge of Honda's history!


DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 10:42
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Yes, almost hard to believe he is 21. Almost.

Maybe information is easier to come by these days, but it is extremely difficult to have a "feel" for a time period if you haven't lived it.
HondaFan1990
Profile for HondaFan1990
Re: Honda in Crisis [part 1]: Fading DNA of Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2012 17:05
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RocketRon,

Thank you. I have been following Honda since my dad bought our old 94 Civic coupe new. My family has seen a good amount of Honda products, two Legends (90 sedan and 93 6 speed coupe), 93 (with over 350k miles),96 and 98 Accords, our 94 Civic and currently a 2010 CRV EXL and 2008 Accord EXL-V6 coupe. I know they aren't giving enthusiasts what they want ATM, but time will be needed to turn things around for Honda. Constant bickering about things, at least from my vantage point, doesn't really solve much, it just keeps the parties involved upset. And even though Honda is wonderful, they aren't worth being upset over....

DCR,

I am in fact 21. I will be 22 in November. I'm currently a junior at Miami University of Ohio. No, I wasn't around to experience Honda in the "glory days" like many on here have nor do I come to say things as if I had been. I am going off of what I've read, talk from my family, being on different car forums and old reviews of Honda products on YouTube. It is 2012 and anything can be accessed or traced these days. The age of reason is around 7, so I can take it back to 97 or so when I started to actually pay attention to things. I can tell you of going to the Honda dealership once with my dad and the new Prelude was in (1997) and I wanted to sit inside of it. The salesman asked me how old I was and since I was 7, he told me I could sit in the Prelude for 7 minutes while I waited on my dad. No, I can't tell you how the Prelude drove or felt when I threw it into a corner new or how SH worked or anything like that, but I can tell you that I felt good sitting in that Prelude. The salesman said it was $26k and I remember it being a stick and being told not to press the pedals. That I remember. I hope my age or lack thereof isn't a topic of questioning on here cause it's such a minuscule thing in the grand scheme of things. I'm just here to talk Honda.....

And I can tell you that I know how a 1996 Prelude SI and 1997 Prelude feel since I have driven them both last summer.
 
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