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CB77
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(Below is part of an article recently published in a Japanese Business Journal about the current problems facing Honda)
Muscular, but Boring
What is it that Honda and Sony used to have, which Toyota Motor and Panasonic didn’t? It’s the “edginess” of products, representing originality no other company has. Today, however, we wonder how many people find recent Honda cars, or Sony products for the matter, exciting.
An executive at Honda explains as follows:
“Cars are becoming more like household appliances and now cars as a whole have lost edginess. We cannot ignore this mainstream trend. Of course development engineers are giving new meanings and significances to the cars they develop, but in terms of powerplant performance, for example, all manufacturers are making similar cars, to be honest. Also, the reality is that fewer customers are attaching importance to powerplant performance and drivability when they make a purchase decision.
“So, what do customers value when buying a car? Today, cars have become products that are used for at least 10 years after the purchase. As such, cars are required to be easy to use, compact and offer wide cabin space, and heresy is not accepted. The traditional image of Honda as a company making extremely edgy cars is an illusion created by the media, or just nostalgia for the good old days.”
The fact that such a dry talk comes from Honda, not Toyota, is surprising, but according to Honda, its DNA is still alive, only in a different form.
For example, unlike Sony the culture of Honda is that former executives don’t give much candid advice. Just like Soichiro Honda who “cut off all ties with the company after retirement,” five presidents that followed him, including Kiyoshi Kawashima, Tadashi Kume, Nobuhiko Kawamoto, Hiroyuki Yoshino and immediate-past president Takeo Fukui (currently Executive Advisor), seldom give interviews.
Another tradition of Honda is that no president has ever become chairman, not even a behind-the-scene chairman who practically runs the company, after retiring, unlike late Norio Oga and Nobuyuki Idei of Sony did. Another difference between Sony and Honda is that, although the current president Takanobu Ito is the first leader of the company who is not specialized in engine development, the principle of putting an engineer to the top has been strictly observed at Honda.
“Every one of such traditions represents our ever-lasting ‘DNA.’ Also, Honda is decisively different from Sony in that our commitment to manufacturing has always remained the same since the founding of the company. Everyone from top to bottom is stubbornly committed to manufacturing, which is our pride as a manufacturer. Put it differently, however, we are not good at doing business away from manufacturing,” says the above executive.
But an observer of Honda has this critical comment:
“Toyota and Honda are very similar in some ways. Both are independent companies and have a strong labor union. At both companies, the top management has a sense of crisis, partly because they must make the shareholders happy, but employees are not sharing this sense of crisis.
“Honda is facing many negative factors one after another, such as the disruption of its supply chains after the earthquake, financial risks and recessions in Europe and the U.S., soaring Japanese yen, and catastrophic flood in Thailand, and employees have this funny sense of resignation or realism that they must keep our head down for now. However, once the situation turns they are the two companies whose profit will certainly increase. They both have sufficient cash on hand, higher salary levels than the industry average, and a strong union. In a sense, they are becoming Japanese GMs.”
Looking at the half-time earnings results, it is notable that Toyota has again slipped into the red. On the other hand, Honda is doing well, despite reporting a drop in profit, thanks to the strong motorcycle division. Going forward, Honda is projecting 75 yen to the dollar and 100 yen to the Euro, which are tougher exchange rate projections than any other large exporting company. In a way, this represents Honda’s strong resistance to exchange rate fluctuations and everyone recognizes the corporate strength of Honda.
Selling Ease of Use and Spacious Interior
However, Honda is only a smaller version of Toyota if it only tries to become a stronger company. Solidity as a company and attractiveness of products in the eyes of consumers are whole different things.
Having entered the market late, Honda has long depended on overseas business more than its rivals. As the domestic market continues to shrink and young Japanese are becoming less interested in cars, it seems Honda is looking at the Japanese market as something like an “added bonus.”
Without going into the details, let’s just say that Honda’s deceleration in overseas markets, especially the North American market where it has always remained strong as a pioneer, presents a significant concern. Recently, Honda finally announced that it would get serious about the Japanese market. The main battleground is the Japanese K-class car segment that already accounts for nearly 40% of the entire domestic car market in some months, and which is expected to account for more than half the market in the future.
Despite the recent announcement, Honda has been completely behind its competitors in terms of enhancing its Japanese K-class car lineup. Particularly after the collapse of Lehman Brothers that triggered the current financial crisis, Honda hasn’t introduced any impressive model other than expanding the hybrid lineup, some journalists say. This is different at rival automakers, which is the source of the “crisis” Honda is now facing.
For example, Nissan Motor, Mitsubishi Motors, Mazda and Daihatsu are weaker than Honda in terms of corporate strength and thus more likely to face dreadful situations and ordeals. However, they are actually providing more topics of conversation of late. Nissan and Mitsubishi set up a joint venture company to plan joint development of Japanese K-class cars, and also expanding OEM models.
As for “edginess” of products, Nissan is drawing the attention by introducing seemingly unique SUVs such as the “Dualis” (sold under the name “Qashqai” in Europe) and “Juke,” and generating strong sales that threaten Toyota in Europe. In the meantime, Mitsubishi’s SUV model “RVR” is receiving rave reviews by experts.
In the past, these cars with a much-talked-about styling did come from Honda. However, recently Honda is losing luster even in engine technology that used to be the symbol and life line of Honda. For example, the new “SkyActiv” engine Mazda put in its small car “Demio” achieves an amazing fuel economy of 30 km per liter for a gasoline engine. Daihatsu is also recording 30 km per liter with its new Japanese K-class car “e:S”
On the other hand, Honda has made a major shift in its strategy to promote cars, now focusing on ease of seat arrangement, spacious interior in a compact body, and expansion of hybrid models in terms of environment, among others. Honda cars have become a “traveling living room” or “moving cargo area.” Although we don’t deny the accelerating trend of cars becoming white goods, Honda as we see it now is really sad.
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superchg2
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Thanks for posting this CB77!
One paragraph in particular stands out. This executive's attitude might offer us an insight into why some of Honda/Acura's recent offerings seem to completely have forgotten the enthusiast,
An executive at Honda explains as follows:
“Cars are becoming more like household appliances and now cars as a whole have lost edginess. We cannot ignore this mainstream trend. Of course development engineers are giving new meanings and significances to the cars they develop, but in terms of powerplant performance, for example, all manufacturers are making similar cars, to be honest. Also, the reality is that fewer customers are attaching importance to powerplant performance and drivability when they make a purchase decision.
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Jovian8
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"The traditional image of Honda as a company making extremely edgy cars is an illusion created by the media, or just nostalgia for the good old days.”
Sad sad quote. This is admitting the 'old' Honda has disappeared...
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typer_801
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Wow, this is really sad. Kind of amazing Honda execs don't see the elephant in the room.
Jovian8 wrote:
"The traditional image of Honda as a company making extremely edgy cars is an illusion created by the media, or just nostalgia for the good old days.”
Sad sad quote. This is admitting the 'old' Honda has disappeared...
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Longhorn
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Jovian8 wrote:
"The traditional image of Honda as a company making extremely edgy cars is an illusion created by the media, or just nostalgia for the good old days.”
Sad sad quote. This is admitting the 'old' Honda has disappeared...
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The quote is shocking............but could the exec be right? Many of here remember how much better Honda cars were versus the competition in the 80s and 90s. Maybe we are naive to think there could still be that big of separation in todays market where, whether we want to admit it or not, the competition has gotten much better and comparable in some areas.
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GoFaster
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"...although the current president Takanobu Ito is the first leader of the company who is not specialized in engine development..."
I didn't know that, but it helps explain how Honda went from great VTEC innovations to being about the last to go to DI and 6,7,8 speed transmissions.
Cars are white goods, if you make them white goods. BMW is going great guns even though they are way overpriced, but they make fun cars to drive. I agree FWD huge heavy cars are white goods, so how about some RWD small cars? For that matter all of these sub 120hp cars/hybrids have had very disappointing sales in the USA. Everyone was excited by the CR-Zzzzzzzzzz until we drove it.
Stop making white goods, unless you can compete with the Prius, which you can't.
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JeffX
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Longhorn wrote:
Jovian8 wrote:
"The traditional image of Honda as a company making extremely edgy cars is an illusion created by the media, or just nostalgia for the good old days.”
Sad sad quote. This is admitting the 'old' Honda has disappeared...
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The quote is shocking............but could the exec be right? Many of here remember how much better Honda cars were versus the competition in the 80s and 90s. Maybe we are naive to think there could still be that big of separation in todays market where, whether we want to admit it or not, the competition has gotten much better and comparable in some areas.
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The problem is that few people see that separation for Honda anymore. The separation was certainly there in the past. The biggest problem is that this "executive" of Honda sees where they were in the past as some sort of "illusion created by the media".
What he says is at least partially true: Hondas were almost never "edgy" in the conventional sense. They differentiated themselves by delivering vehicles that addressed mainstream needs but delivered engineering so simple it was brilliant. It was usually simpler than the competing product, yet outperformed it in basically every way. With this philosophy, Honda created mainstream "appliances" which actually had a soul and created a sense of pride in ownership. The pride came from the knowledge that you were driving a vehicle with world class engineering and quality, yet it was available at the same (or lower) price as its truly soul-sucking, appliance-like competitors.
Unfortunately, Honda has focused more on generating profits as of lately, and engineering cost out of every vehicle to the last god damned nickel seems to be the key priority. There are fewer and fewer engineering "bright spots". Lots of focus on gingerbread electronic features and less focus on what truly makes an automobile enjoyable to drive. I am holding out hope that they are slowly "getting it" and hoping that they will correct their course accordingly.
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carzak
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| They differentiated themselves by delivering vehicles that addressed mainstream needs but delivered engineering so simple it was brilliant. It was usually simpler than the competing product, yet outperformed it in basically every way. |
Isn't that still true for the Civic and CR-V, and to some extent the Accord and Odyssey? They still have relatively simple, carry-over powertrains with minor engineering tweaks, but get best in class/competitive fuel economy and performance.
| that you were driving a vehicle with world class engineering |
This is contradictory to what you said earlier. Did Honda's mainstream vehicles offer world-class engineering, or just simple, elegant engineering?
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rev2damoon
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I don't even know what to say about some of those comments. IMO, this Honda Exec is delusional. How can you say that what Honda was in the past is some sort of illusion? That was no illusion! That was real. That was tangible. There are REAL and quantifyable reasons why people loved Honda in the past. The reputation did not just materialize out of thin air. This isn't some fantasy created by the media. Honda vehicles of the past had certain attributes that EARNED them a certain reputation.
The worst part of it is, he's basically flipping the bird to Honda's enthusiast following. It's quite clear that the focus is squarely on becoming another Toyota or GM; Appliance-like cars with absolutely no soul. What a sad, sad state of affairs. There isn't a single car in the Honda lineup today that can entice me into replacing my 8th gen Si. All I can say is, best of luck to ya, Honda, in beating Toyota and GM at their own game. The almighty dollar rules.
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superchg2
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There is no reason simple, elegant engineering can't be world-class.
Something as simple as Velcro performs well as a world-class fastener in certain applications.
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JeffX
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carzak wrote:
| They differentiated themselves by delivering vehicles that addressed mainstream needs but delivered engineering so simple it was brilliant. It was usually simpler than the competing product, yet outperformed it in basically every way. |
Isn't that still true for the Civic and CR-V, and to some extent the Accord and Odyssey? They still have relatively simple, carry-over powertrains with minor engineering tweaks, but get best in class/competitive fuel economy and performance.
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No. The Civic is the poster child for most everything that has gone wrong at Honda. Fuel economy for the Civic and CR-V is competitive because Honda has sacrificed performance. Earth Dreams will hopefully take care of some of this. This generation Accord is a nice car but in the grand scheme of Accords it's actually pretty underwhelming. It's difficult to gauge any long term trends with the minivans and trucks because they never existed at Honda prior to 2000, but generally they've been improving from that point. Real powertrain advancements have been metered out in tiny increments over the dozen+ years.
| that you were driving a vehicle with world class engineering |
This is contradictory to what you said earlier. Did Honda's mainstream vehicles offer world-class engineering, or just simple, elegant engineering?
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It was world class because Honda figured out how to engineer reliable engines that outperformed all comers (talking on a displacement for displacement basis). This is just one example, but VTEC achieved a lot but it was a relatively simple and dead-reliable technology.
Last edited by JeffX on 04-13-2012 13:04
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rev2damoon
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"Did Honda's mainstream vehicles offer world-class engineering, or just simple, elegant engineering?"
These two attributes do not have to be separate.
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DCR
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Jeff wrote:
Longhorn wrote:
Jovian8 wrote:
"The traditional image of Honda as a company making extremely edgy cars is an illusion created by the media, or just nostalgia for the good old days.”
Sad sad quote. This is admitting the 'old' Honda has disappeared...
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The quote is shocking............but could the exec be right? Many of here remember how much better Honda cars were versus the competition in the 80s and 90s. Maybe we are naive to think there could still be that big of separation in todays market where, whether we want to admit it or not, the competition has gotten much better and comparable in some areas.
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The problem is that few people see that separation for Honda anymore. The separation was certainly there in the past. The biggest problem is that this "executive" of Honda sees where they were in the past as some sort of "illusion created by the media".
What he says is at least partially true: Hondas were almost never "edgy" in the conventional sense. They differentiated themselves by delivering vehicles that addressed mainstream needs but delivered engineering so simple it was brilliant. It was usually simpler than the competing product, yet outperformed it in basically every way. With this philosophy, Honda created mainstream "appliances" which actually had a soul and created a sense of pride in ownership. The pride came from the knowledge that you were driving a vehicle with world class engineering and quality, yet it was available at the same (or lower) price as its truly soul-sucking, appliance-like competitors.
Unfortunately, Honda has focused more on generating profits as of lately, and engineering cost out of every vehicle to the last god damned nickel seems to be the key priority. There are fewer and fewer engineering "bright spots". Lots of focus on gingerbread electronic features and less focus on what truly makes an automobile enjoyable to drive. I am holding out hope that they are slowly "getting it" and hoping that they will correct their course accordingly.
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WHAT THE HELL???
I have to be honest...I would much rather assume that this was the thinking than have them come right out and confirm this PURE BULLSHIT!
"The traditional image of Honda as a company making extremely edgy cars is an illusion created by the media, or just nostalgia for the good old days.”
This guy is out of his mind. How disconnected from your company and/or fan base can you possibly be in order to speak this nonsense?
Here are some illusions, from some extremely awesome media:
There are more, but I didn't have time to find them all. I would also need to post up the Euro and JDM markets and the awesome shit they have gotten over the years. Illusion my ass...they are fucking lazy and taking the easy way out...and then they go and say this stupid shit?
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Varmint
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Jeff wrote:
Real powertrain advancements have been metered out in tiny increments over the dozen+ years.
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Is Honda not trying?
Or, is Honda not succeeding?
Many of the posts I read here give the impression that this community believes Honda is not trying. We see many posts about Honda focused on hybrids when they shouldn't be. Honda is focused on AWD, when they should be using RWD. Honda is either not willing to do what the market wants (read: what they want) or Honda is chasing the wrong goals. Honda has identity issues. Honda is now run by beancounters. Honda is now Toyota, Buick, etc.
I don't see that lack of effort. I don't see that lack of identity. I see a company that came close to developing the first mass production HCCI engine. I see a company that came close to Advanced VTEC. The R&D effort is there.
Imagine what we might think of Honda had the original VTEC turned out to be completely unreliable. Go on, give it some thought. What would Honda be like without VTEC? Would this site be named, "Temple of Naturally-Aspirated Tiny Displacement Engines"?
...Now contrast that with your view of the company had the HCCI engine worked out. Don't change anything else. Just swap one successful piece of engineering with another.
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DCR
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Yup, you got the community here pinned. We are the people who are getting it all wrong, not Honda.
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NealX
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Varmint wrote:
Jeff wrote:
Real powertrain advancements have been metered out in tiny increments over the dozen+ years.
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Is Honda not trying?
Or, is Honda not succeeding?
Many of the posts I read here give the impression that this community believes Honda is not trying. We see many posts about Honda focused on hybrids when they shouldn't be. Honda is focused on AWD, when they should be using RWD. Honda is either not willing to do what the market wants (read: what they want) or Honda is chasing the wrong goals. Honda has identity issues. Honda is now run by beancounters. Honda is now Toyota, Buick, etc.
I don't see that lack of effort. I don't see that lack of identity. I see a company that came close to developing the first mass production HCCI engine. I see a company that came close to Advanced VTEC. The R&D effort is there.
Imagine what we might think of Honda had the original VTEC turned out to be completely unreliable. Go on, give it some thought. What would Honda be like without VTEC? Would this site be named, "Temple of Naturally-Aspirated Tiny Displacement Engines"?
...Now contrast that with your view of the company had the HCCI engine worked out. Don't change anything else. Just swap one successful piece of engineering with another.
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Your arguments seems to be based on the "what if?" notion that the innovations of the past either never existed or could have been complete failures. Yet we know for a FACT that they were complete successes! They happened. They are real.
That's some odd time-travel to make a point and completely denies the Spirit of Honda. I'm actually pretty surprised by this.
And yes, without VTEC, there wouldn't be a temple of anything...
"Trying" is not enough. If I was designing a project for a client, its success would not be determined by how hard I "tried." An idea that "succeeds" can happen in 5 seconds. Just as easily, one can fail after 5 months or five years.
Because I invested more time in pursuing a failure makes it even more tragic because I lacked that transcendental moment of insight and big-picture vision to see an idea in the greater context of my future goal.
Perhaps the "goal" has been moved.
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TonyEX
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I think the article is very Japan centric.
HMC was never known in the US for being "edgy" but -as Jeff noted- by delivering a ton of engineering/manufacturing/fun value for a pittance.
Remember those pop up headlights in the 80s? I mean, how dare family sedans (Accord, Integra) offer stuff that only pricey European Exotics offered.
Or DOHC 16V... or econoboxes with four valves per cylinder... yaddah, yaddah...
In the US, what Honda offered was reliability, functionality and value. Not the cheapest but pound per pound the best bang for your dollar. High resale values and no fleet sales ensure(d) that overall cost of ownership is(was) reasonable.
Edgy, in NA? Nope! Mostly pretty conservative bodies with outstanding value under the skin.
And AHM? Hmm.. a bunch of good manufacturing engineers stuck with a marketing group that could just not kill the brand no matter how hard they tried. (They still do).
However, times do change. Used to be that AHM would sell 400K Accords and 300K Civics per year and a few Legends and Integras. Plus a very few NSXs.
Now AHM sells a lot of cars.
I think that two things conspired to today's mess in NA...
(1) AHM started to take over design and they made a mess. Too many models for too many people. Trying to make AHM a "full vehicle manufacturer" they decided (with plenty of cash) to start expanding into niche products. And they decided to get "edgy" with their design. Oh shoots! Also AHM designs were not integrated with HMC: Accord Wagon, competing Odysseys, TL, RL, NA Accord, Euro Accord/TSX, Integra/RSX/ILX, Civic..
AHM and HMC went too far to the Ying side.
(2) Then Lehman Brothers and a pro-union, anti-car, anti-energy Obama hit. AHM entrenched too much and decided to stop spending on new cars and make money by squeezing costs. They overestimated the recession (*) big time and cut costs both by cutting trim levels and the cost of parts.... Likely they did not cut the quality of the main stuff but they sure did cut some stuff that is quite visible to the naked eye... and thus "perceived quality" has suffered.
They went too far the Yang.
What AHM needs to do is go back to the balance of yore. They don't have to be a Toyota. Losing a truck sale to Ford does not mean that a customer will buy a Fusion over an Accord.
Concentrate on the core competences:
(1) Powertrain technology - cars, racing, bikes, ATVs..
(1a) Keep at 9000RPM, ICE, Hybrid, Fuel Cells, etc...
(2) Manufacturing Excellence
(3) Broaden the trim lines again (Yes, people do want Honda MTs in a Civic EX, Fit Sport, CR-V!!).
(4) Narrow the vehicle offerings
(5 Keep the designs simple but think Chronometer (95 GSR dash).
(6) Offer Halo Cars and Trim levels.
And since customers demand foo foo...
(7) Leverage COTS standards to provide infomatics -avoid in house solutions
It's really simple, nothing edgy. The engineering is there, the money is there....
Sometimes, you see.. it takes money to make money.. so spend it on R&D and manufacturing. As usual.
(*) HMC/AHM may be right at the end, it's like how avoided buying Lucent throughout the 90s because I knew their business models was screwed and could not compare with Cisco. Long term I was right, but in the meantime I missed out on some good earnings.
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Nick GravesX
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Jeff wrote:
Longhorn wrote:
Jovian8 wrote:
"The traditional image of Honda as a company making extremely edgy cars is an illusion created by the media, or just nostalgia for the good old days.”
Sad sad quote. This is admitting the 'old' Honda has disappeared...
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The quote is shocking............but could the exec be right? Many of here remember how much better Honda cars were versus the competition in the 80s and 90s. Maybe we are naive to think there could still be that big of separation in todays market where, whether we want to admit it or not, the competition has gotten much better and comparable in some areas.
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The problem is that few people see that separation for Honda anymore. The separation was certainly there in the past. The biggest problem is that this "executive" of Honda sees where they were in the past as some sort of "illusion created by the media".
What he says is at least partially true: Hondas were almost never "edgy" in the conventional sense. They differentiated themselves by delivering vehicles that addressed mainstream needs but delivered engineering so simple it was brilliant. It was usually simpler than the competing product, yet outperformed it in basically every way. With this philosophy, Honda created mainstream "appliances" which actually had a soul and created a sense of pride in ownership. The pride came from the knowledge that you were driving a vehicle with world class engineering and quality, yet it was available at the same (or lower) price as its truly soul-sucking, appliance-like competitors.
Unfortunately, Honda has focused more on generating profits as of lately, and engineering cost out of every vehicle to the last god damned nickel seems to be the key priority. There are fewer and fewer engineering "bright spots". Lots of focus on gingerbread electronic features and less focus on what truly makes an automobile enjoyable to drive. I am holding out hope that they are slowly "getting it" and hoping that they will correct their course accordingly.
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To a certain extent, it's perfectly true. A lot of their best cars sold poorly for various reasons.
There was something though, about the way a lowly 1.4 Civic could become a VTi or an Integra and somehow become greater than the sum of its parts.
I do agree to an extent about the white goodsness of cars; I am losing interest in the new ones, not just Hondas.
The ONLY thing that makes me call BS are exapmles like the Toyobaru; apparently demand is crazy & the factory cannot hope to keep up.
Which rather tends to prove that there IS still an enthusiast market for sports cars, if you don't fuck the job up.
Or FRED it up in the case of the CR-Z.
Honda is doing well selling basically fairly boring cars that are basically well-engineered. Well, in the US or China at least, which are arguably more 'consumerist' markets.
IF we do buy a new car, it'll probably be an exciting one from a dynamic manufacturer. Like Toyota.
I can hear Soichiro's bones VTECCing in their box...
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HondaFan1990
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I know this may sound strange, but I am happy Honda is going through this rough patch right now. I really am. Why? Because when you look back at Honda's history, at least the last 30 years or so, they haven't really gone through anything that had much negativity. A few duds here or there like the Passport, del Sol or the Acura SLX, but nothing major. Yes, there was the transmission ordeal with the Accord's and other products starting in 1998 or so, but people still bought the products. Name wasn't tarnished, at least not in my eyes.No real harsh criticism besides the cars had high road noise and were lacking torque. Nothing much else (if I'm wrong, correct me). Everything else was praise from packaging to performance to design. Honda was on the rise and was dominating in the 80s and 90s, winning people over and creating fans for life. The 80s and 90s, especially in the U.S. was OWNED by Honda and Toyota. "They could do no wrong."
And this is where the problem comes in. Once they finally do wrong, the world doesn't know how to react to it. It's such a foreign concept, Honda or Toyota failing at something, that when they do it's an outrage. Look at Toyota and the whole runaway car thing. Look at Honda now. Recent redesigns are not living up to what past ones did. Cars today are not what they were 10 years ago, let alone Honda's prime. Cars today are much more advanced, much more complex. Simple is really a thing of the past. You've got hybrid technology, dual clutch transmissions, cars parking themselves, etc, etc. There's no room for simple anymore with anyone's cars. You have to keep pushing the envelope, adding more of this, reducing weight all while doing that within a reasonable range so you can make a profit from the product you're selling.
The economy is not the greatest, the Yen is still high I think and things are just finally starting to look somewhat better in the US, although I do still know a lot of people my age that claim looking for a job is in fact THEIR JOB. That was me last summer.
In order to grow and become better, you have to go through something. You have to fail. Honda never really failed (IMO again) and now they are. Competition has learned how to make a "Honda" without it being a Honda or close to it or even better. Honda will never be like Honda was in the past. They won't. No one ever stays the same I feel. You're constantly growing and evolving, with your priorities change or shift or put things on the back burner.The way you think at 10 is different from 21 and even more different past 40. Honda has evolved. They have shifted their focus. With "Green" being very important these days, that's the focus of all car brands it seems. Who can get the best FE numbers using this technology or that. Sadly, that puts the "enthusiast" at a disadvantage since they're a small minority compared to all the other car buyers who are really just looking for transportation that won't break down and will get them to where they need to be with the least amount of problems.
I'm not a Honda apologist, a stan or anything like that. I'm just a regular fan that wants his favorite company to do well. Honda needs to be Honda, which in essence was make the best products they can. They've half assed it and now they're getting their asses handed back to them ten fold. And it's a wonderful thing. Hopefully it will allow Honda to wake up and see they can do wrong and need to work on improving themselves.
We also have to give them some time to improve. Nothing's gonna happen overnight. We must wait until the Earth Dreams stuff comes out, the new Accord, etc. etc. New CRV is a hit, seems like the RDX is also and the ILX is.....I'm not sure exactly. We also have to stop living in the past with Honda. The CRX, Prelude, S2000, Legend, NSX (for now), Integra, CL, etc. are all dead. DEAD. Not coming back, at least not that we know of or in the way they once were. If there's nothing in the Honda/Acura showroom's now that tickles your fancy, move on. Either keep what you have, buy an old one or move to a new brand for the time being. Not buying a Honda is how we will make them change because sales will be low and hopefully they will see something needs to be done.
That's just my take.....
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superchg2
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A quick question for HondaFan1990, and not trying to be smart.
Is 1990 your birth year?
I bought my first Honda, a Civic S in 1984 and back then you were put on a waiting list. I think it took a couple of months before my new Civic showed up at the dealer!
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TonyEX
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superchg2 wrote:
A quick question for HondaFan1990, and not trying to be smart.
Is 1990 your birth year?
I bought my first Honda, a Civic S in 1984 and back then you were put on a waiting list. I think it took a couple of months before my new Civic showed up at the dealer!
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84? Hah! Young punk.
BTW, I paid 10K for my 84 Civic S (with AC).
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superchg2
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TonyE wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
A quick question for HondaFan1990, and not trying to be smart.
Is 1990 your birth year?
I bought my first Honda, a Civic S in 1984 and back then you were put on a waiting list. I think it took a couple of months before my new Civic showed up at the dealer!
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84? Hah! Young punk.
BTW, I paid 10K for my 84 Civic S (with AC).
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I was thinking of changing my ID to HondaFan1956.
:)
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NealX
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superchg2 wrote:
A quick question for HondaFan1990, and not trying to be smart.
Is 1990 your birth year?
I bought my first Honda, a Civic S in 1984 and back then you were put on a waiting list. I think it took a couple of months before my new Civic showed up at the dealer!
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I am curious as well. If not suddenly suspicious...
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superchg2
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Neal wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
A quick question for HondaFan1990, and not trying to be smart.
Is 1990 your birth year?
I bought my first Honda, a Civic S in 1984 and back then you were put on a waiting list. I think it took a couple of months before my new Civic showed up at the dealer!
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I am curious as well. If not suddenly suspicious...
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He said he is 21 years old, so that would kind of make sense.
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HondaFan1990
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superchg2 wrote:
A quick question for HondaFan1990, and not trying to be smart.
Is 1990 your birth year?
I bought my first Honda, a Civic S in 1984 and back then you were put on a waiting list. I think it took a couple of months before my new Civic showed up at the dealer!
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Yup, November 1990 is my birth year. :)
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PGH
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TonyE wrote:
I think the article is very Japan centric.
HMC was never known in the US for being "edgy" but -as Jeff noted- by delivering a ton of engineering/manufacturing/fun value for a pittance.
Remember those pop up headlights in the 80s? I mean, how dare family sedans (Accord, Integra) offer stuff that only pricey European Exotics offered.
Or DOHC 16V... or econoboxes with four valves per cylinder... yaddah, yaddah...
In the US, what Honda offered was reliability, functionality and value. Not the cheapest but pound per pound the best bang for your dollar. High resale values and no fleet sales ensure(d) that overall cost of ownership is(was) reasonable.
Edgy, in NA? Nope! Mostly pretty conservative bodies with outstanding value under the skin.
And AHM? Hmm.. a bunch of good manufacturing engineers stuck with a marketing group that could just not kill the brand no matter how hard they tried. (They still do).
However, times do change. Used to be that AHM would sell 400K Accords and 300K Civics per year and a few Legends and Integras. Plus a very few NSXs.
Now AHM sells a lot of cars.
I think that two things conspired to today's mess in NA...
(1) AHM started to take over design and they made a mess. Too many models for too many people. Trying to make AHM a "full vehicle manufacturer" they decided (with plenty of cash) to start expanding into niche products. And they decided to get "edgy" with their design. Oh shoots! Also AHM designs were not integrated with HMC: Accord Wagon, competing Odysseys, TL, RL, NA Accord, Euro Accord/TSX, Integra/RSX/ILX, Civic..
AHM and HMC went too far to the Ying side.
(2) Then Lehman Brothers and a pro-union, anti-car, anti-energy Obama hit. AHM entrenched too much and decided to stop spending on new cars and make money by squeezing costs. They overestimated the recession (*) big time and cut costs both by cutting trim levels and the cost of parts.... Likely they did not cut the quality of the main stuff but they sure did cut some stuff that is quite visible to the naked eye... and thus "perceived quality" has suffered.
They went too far the Yang.
What AHM needs to do is go back to the balance of yore. They don't have to be a Toyota. Losing a truck sale to Ford does not mean that a customer will buy a Fusion over an Accord.
Concentrate on the core competences:
(1) Powertrain technology - cars, racing, bikes, ATVs..
(1a) Keep at 9000RPM, ICE, Hybrid, Fuel Cells, etc...
(2) Manufacturing Excellence
(3) Broaden the trim lines again (Yes, people do want Honda MTs in a Civic EX, Fit Sport, CR-V!!).
(4) Narrow the vehicle offerings
(5 Keep the designs simple but think Chronometer (95 GSR dash).
(6) Offer Halo Cars and Trim levels.
And since customers demand foo foo...
(7) Leverage COTS standards to provide infomatics -avoid in house solutions
It's really simple, nothing edgy. The engineering is there, the money is there....
Sometimes, you see.. it takes money to make money.. so spend it on R&D and manufacturing. As usual.
(*) HMC/AHM may be right at the end, it's like how avoided buying Lucent throughout the 90s because I knew their business models was screwed and could not compare with Cisco. Long term I was right, but in the meantime I missed out on some good earnings.
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Not to sound un-American, but most of the brilliant early Japanese engineers have been asked or they have retired. Also,the once engineered driven company has been replaced by penny pinchers interested in the stock price to please it's share holders. That also can be said for other car companies. Honda 's not the only one. This build them on our reputation anf they will but it crap will end some day.
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CarPhreakD
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The last Honda that was "that good" was the 8th generation Si, offering a perfect balance of everything (interesting and quirky features that were genuinely useful; good capacity, thoughtful touches, superb quality, a cracking powerplant, amusing enough to drive yet doesn't destroy you on freeways, low on maintenance and insurance, good FE, indestructible... as long as you don't overrev), with a naturally aspirated powerplant that most competitors still could not match; the only "step up" being the BMW I6.
Every single Honda that's come out then has been missing one or two elements that keep them from being exceptional, above the crowd. Whether it's cost or simply execution, there hasn't been many products lately that I feel have been headlining. The CR-V comes close, but it doesn't really move the game on that much in terms of FE from its engine, at a time when competitors are trying so hard to unseat the car that they're throwing 3 different powertrain options at it.
Remember the CRZ? It COULD HAVE BEEN one of the Honda greats, a true resurrection, but they did not throw enough resources into the IMA system to make it competitive. The last CRX could beat out a V6 Fiero, this new one can't even manage to create BRZ/FR-S levels of buzz (though looking at dyno plots of that car shows that it's weaker than the 8th gen Si).
Even the new RLX, with a powertrain that reminds me a lot of the old Honda of world class engineering, has its challenges (it looks too conservative and still has proportions that could use work; no guarantee it won't suffer the same fate the current RL has). The Accord plug-in SOUNDS like another elegant engineering solution, the ultimate end to the hybrid experiment where you eliminate the transmission completely and pretty much truly merge electric and mechanical components together.
At this point I'm not sure if Honda's culture could really change back so much. We can see glimpses, hope, in the form of the RLX and NSX, but those are just two cars, not the beginning of something; not when Honda has produced at least ten duds over the last few years.
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Varmint
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Neal wrote:
Your arguments seems to be based on the "what if?" notion that the innovations of the past either never existed or could have been complete failures. Yet we know for a FACT that they were complete successes! They happened. They are real.
That's some odd time-travel to make a point and completely denies the Spirit of Honda. I'm actually pretty surprised by this.
And yes, without VTEC, there wouldn't be a temple of anything...
"Trying" is not enough. If I was designing a project for a client, its success would not be determined by how hard I "tried." An idea that "succeeds" can happen in 5 seconds. Just as easily, one can fail after 5 months or five years.
Because I invested more time in pursuing a failure makes it even more tragic because I lacked that transcendental moment of insight and big-picture vision to see an idea in the greater context of my future goal.
Perhaps the "goal" has been moved.
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You're right about about failure being more tragic when greater time and effort are expended. Success is not always about effort. (Which was my point.) It isn't necessarily about pursuing the right course of action. Sometimes the best plans hinge on one small detail. There's a fine line between success and failure. You're quite right about that.
Which all begs the question; was Honda's success in the 80's and 90's anything more than one or two small details? Are these lackluster years anything more than one of two projects missing their mark? That could be all that separates the Honda of old with the company we have now.
Instead of looking for that fine line, we have all this abstract talk of mojo, DNA, identity, and the ghost of Soichiro.
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TonyEX
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CarPhreakD wrote:
The last Honda that was "that good" was the 8th generation Si, offering a perfect balance of everything...
Every single Honda that's come out then has been missing one or two elements that keep them from being exceptional, above the crowd. ...
Even the new RLX, with a powertrain that reminds me a lot of the old Honda of world class engineering, has its challenges (it looks too conservative and still has proportions that could use work;
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Actually I love the Civic GX and Clarity.
I also think the "cleaned up" TL and the upcoming RLX are very good.
The RLX, in particular, is chock full of very interesting technology and is wrapped in a nicely conservative skin. The proper course for its price point. Edginess in that market is best left for Cadillac and the BLING crowd, but will never gather real respect from the old money, only derision.
And of course.. YOU ALL IGNORE THE FIT!!!!
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FiSH-Chan
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TonyE wrote:
And of course.. YOU ALL IGNORE THE FIT!!!!
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And places outside of USA, Canada and Europe
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