cksi1372
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iutodd wrote:
cksi1372 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
cksi1372 wrote:
Spot on comments as usual Shawn.
What I don't get is why so many people get so excited about mpg's on a "luxury" car. Sorry, but most people "swimming" in this market (higher end luxury) could give to "#($&" about gas prices or mpg's. Yes, there are some outliers, but when it comes down to it they are buying style, cachet, performance, etc. Do you really think the 1%'ers care about $4.50/gallon gas prices for their $65k vehicle. Hell, most of them probably lease and know they aren't buying a Prius. Perhaps, if the mpg's were something significant, say 50mpg's, they might get some "press", but 30 mpg's, come on.
I spend a lot of time on BMW boards, since I own one, as well, and the only real area mpg's usually come up is in the 3 Series forums. Usually because it's a "kid" that's purchased a used 3'er, didn't worry about premium gas prices when they bought, and now asking if they can step down a grade to "save some money". Between that and maintenance, they shouldn't be in a lowly 3'er, anyway....stick with your Civic, until you can actually afford more than just the price of the car. Ha.
I think the RLX is nice and has some cool features, but doesn't do anything to pump up Acura sales for it significantly. I'm sure A's market research says people want good mpg's, but isn't this pretty much common sense..."Would good gas mileage, good performance, and unique features in a luxury car appeal to you?" Who the hell is going to answer "no" to that. It seems like Acura still doesn't get it. Oh well, the new RDX is really nice and should sell like hotcakes...it's on our short list.
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For those folks, you'd think the 370hp, world first in electric torque vectoring and huge level of technology would be a draw.
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Why? You can get that hp in many other cars in the segment, very few could give two who who's about electric torque vectoring (this could change if Acura markets correctly, but I won't hold my breath with anything Acura marketing does...they intro'd this new vehicle in friggin beige), and again, others have a huge level of tech, as well.
I just don't see this vehicle having any chance at pulling people away from other brands, except maybe those that were looking at a Genesis or Equus type car and aren't married to the German's.
Oh, and did I mention they intro'd this thing in probably the worst color ever. Acura Marketing: Next time consult Neal before doing a car intro. That aside, I do think the car is nice looking inside and out.
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I love how quickly people dismiss what Acura has done. OH, pssh, 30 mpg combined with 370 hp and AWD? Whatever. You can get an Audi that offers 28 mpg HIGHWAY for a bit more money. Such a double standard it's ridiculous..."mpgs for other cars are a selling point, but the mpg numbers for Acura don't matter."
The reaction on other car websites/blogs has been similarly dismissive. I just don't understand how this isn't impressive and how it won't help sales. Other automakers talk about power train technology and fuel efficiency all the time. And this power train is among the most advanced in the world. How is that not a selling point?
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I'm not dismissing anything, but it seems that others are seeing the same thing...this technology is not THAT much better than anyone else's. And, hell, that's if you even have people in this segment that care that much about mpg's, which I don't think they do (there are some outliers). Manufacturer's are just noting it because they are being forced by standards to say "hey, we moved from an 8 cylinder with "x" HP, to now a TT 6 cylinder with same or better 8 cyl power AND a few more mpg's. It doesn't hurt to bring up, but not a MAJOR selling point.
Also, the new hybrid 5 Series will have 355hp with 30 mpg's, granted only a RWD, for example. Carphreak mentions some of the other competition and sorry, but Acura is not blowing away the competition with their numbers, and that's what people will read, see, hear. If it was 400hp with 50mpg's that will get noticed, IMO, but still would not be deciding factor for some. MPG's are just not the end all be all in the luxury segment, sorry. Couple that with a nice but somewhat conservative styling, inside and out, still doesn't move the needle in sales...that much, IMO.
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cksi1372
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CarPhreakD wrote:
cksi1372 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
cksi1372 wrote:
notyper wrote:
Most relevant direct comparison to current vehicles is the Infiniti M Hybrid. 305 hp 3.5 liter V6, 360 hp combined output. 7spd auto, but doesn't use a torque converter. About 4150 lbs weight. Rated at 27/32/29 (and this is a modified older Nissan V6, not the newer VVEL stuff, so fuel economy is not a strong point for this engine). Starting price $55k, optioned up $65k.
The main difference here is AWD and the torque vectoring that the Acura offers. Given that the current generation RL weighs about 4100 lbs with SH-AWD, I would expect that even with some weight saving technology, this slightly larger dimensioned RLX, with the extra weight of batteries and such will come in slightly heavier. I think 4200 lbs would be good all things considered, but 4300 lbs wouldn't surprise me.
The Infiniti, with a traction limited launch, gets to 60 in the low 5's and the 1/4 in the mid-13's@102-103 mph. I would expect that the Acura, even if the power to weight ratio is slightly worse, will be a little quicker thanks to AWD. Might even hit high 4's 0-60 if they don't nanny it up on the launch. I'll bet the RL pricing will be similar too.
The question is, will it sell? The M-hybrid (and the M in general) certainly don't. Will the AWD be an attractive enough feature to bring people in to the showroom? Whether you like the looks or not, I don't see them as being different enough to be a draw on their own.
And will it be enough to sway people away from a surging Audi and the A6 3.0T? While the A6 is less powerful and not as fuel efficient (28 hwy though), it's still pretty quick, and people love the look and interior, and it can be had starting at $50k, although it gets expensive optioned up. Or the 5-series and E-class? The twin turbo V8's in these cars start right around $60k and even though it sucks that it matters, they do carry more brand cachet.
I guess it comes down to whether enough people care about fuel economy in this class of car. I can honestly say I just don't know if that'll be a selling point for buyers with the means to purchase these cars. I'm sure Acura is hoping it will. Maybe they'll surprise us and offer the RLX for under $50k (I doubt it though).
On a personal note, I do hope it looks better in person.
SC
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Spot on comments as usual Shawn.
What I don't get is why so many people get so excited about mpg's on a "luxury" car. Sorry, but most people "swimming" in this market (higher end luxury) could give to "#($&" about gas prices or mpg's. Yes, there are some outliers, but when it comes down to it they are buying style, cachet, performance, etc. Do you really think the 1%'ers care about $4.50/gallon gas prices for their $65k vehicle. Hell, most of them probably lease and know they aren't buying a Prius. Perhaps, if the mpg's were something significant, say 50mpg's, they might get some "press", but 30 mpg's, come on.
I spend a lot of time on BMW boards, since I own one, as well, and the only real area mpg's usually come up is in the 3 Series forums. Usually because it's a "kid" that's purchased a used 3'er, didn't worry about premium gas prices when they bought, and now asking if they can step down a grade to "save some money". Between that and maintenance, they shouldn't be in a lowly 3'er, anyway....stick with your Civic, until you can actually afford more than just the price of the car. Ha.
I think the RLX is nice and has some cool features, but doesn't do anything to pump up Acura sales for it significantly. I'm sure A's market research says people want good mpg's, but isn't this pretty much common sense..."Would good gas mileage, good performance, and unique features in a luxury car appeal to you?" Who the hell is going to answer "no" to that. It seems like Acura still doesn't get it. Oh well, the new RDX is really nice and should sell like hotcakes...it's on our short list.
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For those folks, you'd think the 370hp, world first in electric torque vectoring and huge level of technology would be a draw.
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Why? You can get that hp in many other cars in the segment, very few could give two who who's about electric torque vectoring (this could change if Acura markets correctly, but I won't hold my breath with anything Acura marketing does...they intro'd this new vehicle in friggin beige), and again, others have a huge level of tech, as well.
I just don't see this vehicle having any chance at pulling people away from other brands, except maybe those that were looking at a Genesis or Equus type car and aren't married to the German's.
Oh, and did I mention they intro'd this thing in probably the worst color ever. Acura Marketing: Next time consult Neal before doing a car intro. That aside, I do think the car is nice looking inside and out.
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Really? Have you been paying attention to the other cars in this segment?
Audi A6: 310 hp 3.0t, 211hp 2.0t
Mercedes E-class: V6 302hp, V8 402hp
Lexus GS: V6 306hp, hybrid 338hp
Infiniti M37: V6 330hp, hybrid 360hp
BMW 5-series: I4 240hp, I6 300hp, V8 400hp (twin turbo)
In the context of all these vehicles, I would say the RLX hybrid's power output is not only the most powerful out of all the current hybrids, but is enough to actually rival the V8s.
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Absolutely, and you are proving my point with your post. You also forgot the 5 Series hybrid (355hp/30mpg). The more direct competitors (hybrids above) don't really fall "short" to the new RLX, in a major way that I can see on initial comparison. Yes, most are a tad under HP (more so for the Lex), but they are all going to have similar mpg numbers posted...30mpg. Hell, even the 8 cyl BMW has a 25mpg highway rating...and we know how much people pay attn to real world numbers, they often don't. So, Mr/Mrs buyer is looking at the 5 8 cyl vs RLX and saying, "yes, I give up a little more mpg (actually prob a lot), but have more HP, a better driving experience (in their mind, don't know how the RLX drives yet), and more than likely a better or close to lease price (most of these luxury cars are leased), and I bet 8 times out of 10 they go with the "traditional" car.
Hey, I hope I'm wrong and will be more than glad to come back here and eat my words (it happened with the last gen CRV), but I don't see it happening here...with any significant increase in sales at a sustained rate. It's a nice vehicle, but not a game changer in the segment and that's what Acura needs in the luxury segment to REALLY be considered a player/threat, IMO.
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Ganplosive
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Though I'm strongly in favor of this car (I think it's moving the needle towards the right direction and that it's updates are substantial over it's outgoing model) and think that it will do better than before, I do agree with you on one thing - This car isn't a game changer. But I'm completely ok with that honestly. I for one wasn't expecting Acura to reach for the stars on this one model alone, and quite frankly I don't think anyone was expecting 3000 cars off the lot per month.
The point of this vehicle, as far as I'm concerned, is that Acura finally decided to come out and lay to waste the conflicting and teeter-tottering question of "WHICH CAR IS ACURA'S FLAGSHIP?". I think it's clear, this car is ABOVE the TL in everything, and is taking its rightful place amongst the lineup with a price that is fitting for the goodies it offers.
370+ HP 30 combined MPG in the size of a 5 series with good interior size and offering the best that Honda technology has to offer, for close to 60k (I think). It's no show-stopper, but you can't say it's not competitive and won't garner a second look from buyers in this segment. The out going RL was almost never on the minds of prospective buyers. This one should at least get them to the dealerships for a test-drive, even just to feel what the SH-AWD can do. It might just change minds.
Brand building and strategic alignment is more than just offering stats on pieces of paper and expecting the auto-press to do the work for it. It will take years to do, and a lot of it will have to be done on the road in test-drive. I feel a lot of the people on here dismissing this car are, well, quite frankly over-expecting. Put your ass in the drivers seat, take it out for 2 laps around the dealership.
I personally think the ILX and the RLX just might bring back some old-school feelings, where they're not necessarily extremely impressive on paper but it's the whole package that counts.
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CarPhreakD
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cksi1372 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
cksi1372 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
cksi1372 wrote:
notyper wrote:
Most relevant direct comparison to current vehicles is the Infiniti M Hybrid. 305 hp 3.5 liter V6, 360 hp combined output. 7spd auto, but doesn't use a torque converter. About 4150 lbs weight. Rated at 27/32/29 (and this is a modified older Nissan V6, not the newer VVEL stuff, so fuel economy is not a strong point for this engine). Starting price $55k, optioned up $65k.
The main difference here is AWD and the torque vectoring that the Acura offers. Given that the current generation RL weighs about 4100 lbs with SH-AWD, I would expect that even with some weight saving technology, this slightly larger dimensioned RLX, with the extra weight of batteries and such will come in slightly heavier. I think 4200 lbs would be good all things considered, but 4300 lbs wouldn't surprise me.
The Infiniti, with a traction limited launch, gets to 60 in the low 5's and the 1/4 in the mid-13's@102-103 mph. I would expect that the Acura, even if the power to weight ratio is slightly worse, will be a little quicker thanks to AWD. Might even hit high 4's 0-60 if they don't nanny it up on the launch. I'll bet the RL pricing will be similar too.
The question is, will it sell? The M-hybrid (and the M in general) certainly don't. Will the AWD be an attractive enough feature to bring people in to the showroom? Whether you like the looks or not, I don't see them as being different enough to be a draw on their own.
And will it be enough to sway people away from a surging Audi and the A6 3.0T? While the A6 is less powerful and not as fuel efficient (28 hwy though), it's still pretty quick, and people love the look and interior, and it can be had starting at $50k, although it gets expensive optioned up. Or the 5-series and E-class? The twin turbo V8's in these cars start right around $60k and even though it sucks that it matters, they do carry more brand cachet.
I guess it comes down to whether enough people care about fuel economy in this class of car. I can honestly say I just don't know if that'll be a selling point for buyers with the means to purchase these cars. I'm sure Acura is hoping it will. Maybe they'll surprise us and offer the RLX for under $50k (I doubt it though).
On a personal note, I do hope it looks better in person.
SC
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Spot on comments as usual Shawn.
What I don't get is why so many people get so excited about mpg's on a "luxury" car. Sorry, but most people "swimming" in this market (higher end luxury) could give to "#($&" about gas prices or mpg's. Yes, there are some outliers, but when it comes down to it they are buying style, cachet, performance, etc. Do you really think the 1%'ers care about $4.50/gallon gas prices for their $65k vehicle. Hell, most of them probably lease and know they aren't buying a Prius. Perhaps, if the mpg's were something significant, say 50mpg's, they might get some "press", but 30 mpg's, come on.
I spend a lot of time on BMW boards, since I own one, as well, and the only real area mpg's usually come up is in the 3 Series forums. Usually because it's a "kid" that's purchased a used 3'er, didn't worry about premium gas prices when they bought, and now asking if they can step down a grade to "save some money". Between that and maintenance, they shouldn't be in a lowly 3'er, anyway....stick with your Civic, until you can actually afford more than just the price of the car. Ha.
I think the RLX is nice and has some cool features, but doesn't do anything to pump up Acura sales for it significantly. I'm sure A's market research says people want good mpg's, but isn't this pretty much common sense..."Would good gas mileage, good performance, and unique features in a luxury car appeal to you?" Who the hell is going to answer "no" to that. It seems like Acura still doesn't get it. Oh well, the new RDX is really nice and should sell like hotcakes...it's on our short list.
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For those folks, you'd think the 370hp, world first in electric torque vectoring and huge level of technology would be a draw.
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Why? You can get that hp in many other cars in the segment, very few could give two who who's about electric torque vectoring (this could change if Acura markets correctly, but I won't hold my breath with anything Acura marketing does...they intro'd this new vehicle in friggin beige), and again, others have a huge level of tech, as well.
I just don't see this vehicle having any chance at pulling people away from other brands, except maybe those that were looking at a Genesis or Equus type car and aren't married to the German's.
Oh, and did I mention they intro'd this thing in probably the worst color ever. Acura Marketing: Next time consult Neal before doing a car intro. That aside, I do think the car is nice looking inside and out.
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Really? Have you been paying attention to the other cars in this segment?
Audi A6: 310 hp 3.0t, 211hp 2.0t
Mercedes E-class: V6 302hp, V8 402hp
Lexus GS: V6 306hp, hybrid 338hp
Infiniti M37: V6 330hp, hybrid 360hp
BMW 5-series: I4 240hp, I6 300hp, V8 400hp (twin turbo)
In the context of all these vehicles, I would say the RLX hybrid's power output is not only the most powerful out of all the current hybrids, but is enough to actually rival the V8s.
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Absolutely, and you are proving my point with your post. You also forgot the 5 Series hybrid (355hp/30mpg). The more direct competitors (hybrids above) don't really fall "short" to the new RLX, in a major way that I can see on initial comparison. Yes, most are a tad under HP (more so for the Lex), but they are all going to have similar mpg numbers posted...30mpg. Hell, even the 8 cyl BMW has a 25mpg highway rating...and we know how much people pay attn to real world numbers, they often don't. So, Mr/Mrs buyer is looking at the 5 8 cyl vs RLX and saying, "yes, I give up a little more mpg (actually prob a lot), but have more HP, a better driving experience (in their mind, don't know how the RLX drives yet), and more than likely a better or close to lease price (most of these luxury cars are leased), and I bet 8 times out of 10 they go with the "traditional" car.
Hey, I hope I'm wrong and will be more than glad to come back here and eat my words (it happened with the last gen CRV), but I don't see it happening here...with any significant increase in sales at a sustained rate. It's a nice vehicle, but not a game changer in the segment and that's what Acura needs in the luxury segment to REALLY be considered a player/threat, IMO.
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Your logic is very interesting, and this is pretty much something that I've been seeing here on TOV that's sort of always baffled me.
Instead of saying "370 hp, this is more than any current vehicle on the market, and only 30hp short of rivaling twin turbo V8s", you say
"370hp, oh yeah, that's ONLY 70hp more than turbo 6s, and 10-15 more than the current most powerful hybrids in the arena."
The V8s, btw, start at $62k+.
From what you've been saying, originally and I quote,
Why? You can get that hp in many other cars in the segment
And as has been proven, "many other cars" consists of exactly 2, nevermind the AMG and M class cars. And both of those cars rely on large displacement V8s, one of those relies on twin turbocharging, and NONE of them can match the RLX's powertrain efficiency.
And I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but "25 mpg" is a world apart from "30mpg". But then, I thought you weren't bringing fuel economy into the discussion? And what would Acura need to do to make a "game changing" car in your point of view?
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CarPhreakD
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Ganplosive wrote:
Though I'm strongly in favor of this car (I think it's moving the needle towards the right direction and that it's updates are substantial over it's outgoing model) and think that it will do better than before, I do agree with you on one thing - This car isn't a game changer. But I'm completely ok with that honestly. I for one wasn't expecting Acura to reach for the stars on this one model alone, and quite frankly I don't think anyone was expecting 3000 cars off the lot per month.
The point of this vehicle, as far as I'm concerned, is that Acura finally decided to come out and lay to waste the conflicting and teeter-tottering question of "WHICH CAR IS ACURA'S FLAGSHIP?". I think it's clear, this car is ABOVE the TL in everything, and is taking its rightful place amongst the lineup with a price that is fitting for the goodies it offers.
370+ HP 30 combined MPG in the size of a 5 series with good interior size and offering the best that Honda technology has to offer, for close to 60k (I think). It's no show-stopper, but you can't say it's not competitive and won't garner a second look from buyers in this segment. The out going RL was almost never on the minds of prospective buyers. This one should at least get them to the dealerships for a test-drive, even just to feel what the SH-AWD can do. It might just change minds.
Brand building and strategic alignment is more than just offering stats on pieces of paper and expecting the auto-press to do the work for it. It will take years to do, and a lot of it will have to be done on the road in test-drive. I feel a lot of the people on here dismissing this car are, well, quite frankly over-expecting. Put your ass in the drivers seat, take it out for 2 laps around the dealership.
I personally think the ILX and the RLX just might bring back some old-school feelings, where they're not necessarily extremely impressive on paper but it's the whole package that counts.
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I agree with this sentiment. The RLX is the embodiment of what Acura wants to do as a "smart luxury" automaker, bringing in a huge level of tech that none of their competitors currently offer, and is truly differentiated from the competition. I don't think it is a clear standout from the midsize lux class, but certainly it is extremely competitive and can change minds. My main concern is the conservative styling and how Acura will price it.
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VTECRacer
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What exactly is a clear standout in this segment? And what about it makes it a clear standout?
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Ganplosive
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Your logic is very interesting, and this is pretty much something that I've been seeing here on TOV that's sort of always baffled me.
Instead of saying "370 hp, this is more than any current vehicle on the market, and only 30hp short of rivaling twin turbo V8s", you say
"370hp, oh yeah, that's ONLY 70hp more than turbo 6s, and 10-15 more than the current most powerful hybrids in the arena."
The V8s, btw, start at $62k+.
From what you've been saying, originally and I quote,
Why? You can get that hp in many other cars in the segment
And as has been proven, "many other cars" consists of exactly 2, nevermind the AMG and M class cars. And both of those cars rely on large displacement V8s, one of those relies on twin turbocharging, and NONE of them can match the RLX's powertrain efficiency.
And I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but "25 mpg" is a world apart from "30mpg". But then, I thought you weren't bringing fuel economy into the discussion? And what would Acura need to do to make a "game changing" car in your point of view?
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+100 here.
Guys 370+ hp from a freaking Acura. Since when has Acura EVER been 50+ HP over most of its competitors? Let alone lead the MPG ratings and offering the build and reliability of an Acura minus the extreme maintenance fees?
Frankly a lot of the debbie downers here (not to single anyone out) are just starting to sound overly pessimistic. There appears to be some triple-standards being applied in every possible way such that Acura is always being painted in the negative light.
Most power - OH it's only a little big more, ________ has more.
Most aggressive pricing - OH it's only a little bit better value, I'd rather spend a little more for ________.
Most efficient - OH it's just some MPG's more, people at this price level don't care about MPG.
Toned-down updated styling - OH it's not a show stopper, and doesn't wow me. But I hate the 4G TL it needs to die.
More reliable than any Germans - But people at this price point don't care
Most teched out - Don't care.
Acura Brand Cachet - Pshh it's just a Honda, and I would never pay 60k for any car much less than a Honda!
like seriously what do you guys want? what is the PERFECT competitor really I want to know. Were you guys expecting a car that's cheaper than everyone else, least expensive to get a hold of, least expensive to maintain - YET SOMEHOW more sought after than a BMW, most reliable, looks like megan fox herself, and drives like a Ferrari? I just don't get it!
How are you guys going to explain or defend your position that this car is NOT a competitor? Let the market worry about voting with their wallets. People that are looking in this segment will and should look at the Acura. If they don't, they're the foolish ones judging a book by its cover.
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notyper
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How can you say it's 50 hp over most of its competitors Ganplosive? Unless you think the AWD version of the RL is going to be well under $60k. Personally I think it's going to start at $60k ($59.5k?) and go well over that with options. That puts it square against the 550, E550 and M56 (or M Hybrid). The A6, 535, etc. are all in the $50k starting range.
I think that what you're going to have in the RLX is a car that, for the $$$, is competitive powerwise (somewhere in the middle) and class leading on fuel economy (M hybrid and 5 hybrid will be right there). That's definitely an improvement for Acura without a doubt. However, given the looks, Acura's relative brand decline over the last 5 years, and the strength of the competition, I have concerns about conquest sales which Acura needs.
To really take a bite out of the 5 and E-class (and to a lesser extent the A6) the RLX is going to have to be superior in some very obvious ways on the test drive and in the magazine tests. This is something that Infiniti kind of missed on with the current generation M37/M56. It's a good car, great engine in the V8, objectivel handles well and has a fabulous interior - right at the top of the class. But the exterior shape has some awkward angles and the ride/handling balance is off in a substantial way. When you're playing from behind in the reptuation stakes (like Infiniti or Acura), you can't afford to be behind anywhere. I think the RLX already falls short in the looks side of things. They can't afford a miss anywhere else in the package.
Of course, all that changes if the price is much lower than expected. But I don't think Acura wants to go down that road - it's a long term loser.
SC
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DCR
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SC, only 10 more over the top ball riding Acura posts to go and he gets a free Acura key chain.
Christ is this getting pathetic.
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VTECRacer
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DCR wrote:
SC, only 10 more over the top ball riding Acura posts to go and he gets a free Acura key chain.
Christ is this getting pathetic.
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You realize that a majority of the posts of have made in the RLX thread has been nothing but insulting and attacking people. You haven't said anything good about the car, you haven't said anything bad about the car, so now your just going to be talking shit on people? Pathetic.
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VTECRacer
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notyper wrote:
How can you say it's 50 hp over most of its competitors Ganplosive? Unless you think the AWD version of the RL is going to be well under $60k. Personally I think it's going to start at $60k ($59.5k?) and go well over that with options. That puts it square against the 550, E550 and M56 (or M Hybrid). The A6, 535, etc. are all in the $50k starting range.
I think that what you're going to have in the RLX is a car that, for the $$$, is competitive powerwise (somewhere in the middle) and class leading on fuel economy (M hybrid and 5 hybrid will be right there). That's definitely an improvement for Acura without a doubt. However, given the looks, Acura's relative brand decline over the last 5 years, and the strength of the competition, I have concerns about conquest sales which Acura needs.
To really take a bite out of the 5 and E-class (and to a lesser extent the A6) the RLX is going to have to be superior in some very obvious ways on the test drive and in the magazine tests. This is something that Infiniti kind of missed on with the current generation M37/M56. It's a good car, great engine in the V8, objectivel handles well and has a fabulous interior - right at the top of the class. But the exterior shape has some awkward angles and the ride/handling balance is off in a substantial way. When you're playing from behind in the reptuation stakes (like Infiniti or Acura), you can't afford to be behind anywhere. I think the RLX already falls short in the looks side of things. They can't afford a miss anywhere else in the package.
Of course, all that changes if the price is much lower than expected. But I don't think Acura wants to go down that road - it's a long term loser.
SC
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You really think the base hybrid RLX is going to command a $12,000 bump in price over the current base RL (which comes with SH-AWD standard)? I find that hard to believe. Sure there are added costs with the new hybrid setup. However, there are also savings to be had with the deletion of mechanical SH-AWD. The exclusion of the carbon fiber driveshaft alone probably saves a grip. Not to mention the rear differential which was the most expensive of any of the other SH-AWD equipped Acura's.
My guess is $60k fully loaded.
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DCR
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VTECRacer wrote:
DCR wrote:
SC, only 10 more over the top ball riding Acura posts to go and he gets a free Acura key chain.
Christ is this getting pathetic.
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You realize that a majority of the posts of have made in the RLX thread has been nothing but insulting and attacking people. You haven't said anything good about the car, you haven't said anything bad about the car, so now your just going to be talking shit on people? Pathetic.
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You are a waste of time. You have a long way to go for your key chain bud, better get to it.
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VTECRacer
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^^^^ See what I mean.
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DCR
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VTECRacer wrote:
^^^^ See what I mean.
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No, I don't.
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VTECRacer
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DCR wrote:
VTECRacer wrote:
^^^^ See what I mean.
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No, I don't.
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I know you don't. That's why I wasn't talking to you in that post.
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Ganplosive
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notyper wrote:
How can you say it's 50 hp over most of its competitors Ganplosive? Unless you think the AWD version of the RL is going to be well under $60k. Personally I think it's going to start at $60k ($59.5k?) and go well over that with options. That puts it square against the 550, E550 and M56 (or M Hybrid). The A6, 535, etc. are all in the $50k starting range.
I think that what you're going to have in the RLX is a car that, for the $$$, is competitive powerwise (somewhere in the middle) and class leading on fuel economy (M hybrid and 5 hybrid will be right there). That's definitely an improvement for Acura without a doubt. However, given the looks, Acura's relative brand decline over the last 5 years, and the strength of the competition, I have concerns about conquest sales which Acura needs.
To really take a bite out of the 5 and E-class (and to a lesser extent the A6) the RLX is going to have to be superior in some very obvious ways on the test drive and in the magazine tests. This is something that Infiniti kind of missed on with the current generation M37/M56. It's a good car, great engine in the V8, objectivel handles well and has a fabulous interior - right at the top of the class. But the exterior shape has some awkward angles and the ride/handling balance is off in a substantial way. When you're playing from behind in the reptuation stakes (like Infiniti or Acura), you can't afford to be behind anywhere. I think the RLX already falls short in the looks side of things. They can't afford a miss anywhere else in the package.
Of course, all that changes if the price is much lower than expected. But I don't think Acura wants to go down that road - it's a long term loser.
SC
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Well I posted it in Hybrid wars but no one is looking so I'll post it here as well...
Acura RLX SH-AWD
coming soon.
3.5 V6 total HP 370+ hp.
~4100 lbs
30/30/30
~ 60k for AWD option.
BMW ACTIVEHYBRID 5
3.0-liter 300-hp inline 6-cylinder li-ion increasing the total horsepower to 335
4365 lbs
23 / 30 mpg
Starts at $60,950
E400 Luxury Hybrid
coming soon.
V6 306 hp, plus the 27 hp from battery.
24 / 31 hwy
Expects prices to be closer to low 60's.
Audi A6 Hybrid
coming soon.
211-hp, 2.0-liter turbo four-cylinder mated with a 54-hp electric motor combined for 245-hp.
front wheels through an eight-speed automatic.
weight ~~ 4245 lbs.
rated to return 37 mpg combined.
Expect low 60 k's
Lexus GS 450H
3.5 V6 338 hp AWD
4190 lbs.
around 29/34/31.
no pricing yet, expect ~low 60 k's
Infiniti M Hybrid
3.5-liter V6 with Infiniti Direct Response Hybrid® utilizing a lithium-ion battery and 50 kW electric motor TOTAL 360 Hp.
RWD
4129
27 / 32
$61,700 k
First and foremost, let me say that most of the prices of these hybrid cars are STARTING 60k solid. You know pricing options from these luxury makers could add up to close to 10,000k premiums over the Acura when comparatively equipped. It has always been that way on every model Acura competes in, it's most likely going to be that way even on this car. A Loaded RLX should be thousands if not close the 10k cheaper than similarly equipped competitors.
I don't see how you're drawing a comparison between horsepower and pricing.... When you compare the RLX (a hybrid) to its competitors (that are also hybrids), the RLX is indeed the highest hp offering in the segment, with the M close behind. Whether you like it or not the RLX is a hybrid, and needs to be compared to hybrids or there's no argument.
If you look at the cited hybrid numbers from these manufacturers, yes - 370+ (probably 372 or 375) IS indeed 50 over other hybrid competitors. (e400 and A6 playing in low 300's)
335 + 315 + 245 + 338 + 360 DIVIDE by 5 ~ 318.6. or 320 Average. 370+ is 50 hp more than the average.
I don't think it's fair that you're bringing in the 550, the E550, and the M56 in for comparisons on horsepower, and then bringing in the M hybrid and 5 hybrid for their MPG's.... you're doing exactly what I say a lot of debbie downers are doing - You citing the power of a E550 (402 horsepower, 16/26 MPG) and the mpg of a E hybrid (306 hp 24/31). Which is it? Either way you're going to paint the RLX in the worse off light - It doesn't meet V8 performance numbers, AND that its mpg is only a little bit better than the hybrids....
That's like saying yeah well the TL is an absolute piece of shit, it comes nowhere near the HP's of the M3, and then the 328 has mileage that's close to if not better than the TL.
Apples to Apples. Oranges to Oranges.
This is exactly what I'm talking about, with the RLX you can have the best of both worlds - 370+ hp and 30/30.
We can talk the base model too. RLX @ FWD+PAWS 3.5 310+ hp with a little worse city and better highway (assuming), for close to 46k vs the E350 @ 302 hp 20/30 MPG starting at 50k.
How is that NOT competitive?
You can't cite the V8 power against the RLX, which isn't even that far behind, and then use the hybrid to say yeah well it's also close to the RLX in mpg. It's either or. Only the RLX is giving you the option of having your cake and eating it too, if you're willing to get into a hybrid. If not, the base is competitive as well. The only group Acura is losing out on are those that insist on V8 HP with shitty MPG, a dying breed. And good riddance I suppose.
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Ganplosive
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add - http://pressroom.lexus.com/releases/lexus+pricing+2013+gs450h+rx350+rx450h+rx350+f-sport+2012+is+sedans.htm
Arriving in dealerships in May, the 2013 GS 450h will have a base MSRP of $58,950, unchanged from the model it replaces.
There you have it, Lexus came out swinging on the GS450h starting at 59k. Now I'm sure the RLX eSH-AWD will start lower than 60k.
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Ganplosive
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DCR wrote:
SC, only 10 more over the top ball riding Acura posts to go and he gets a free Acura key chain.
Christ is this getting pathetic.
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you mad bro? Ay you're already mad though... might as well get more mad right? I LOVE Acura key chains, it's the only thing with an Acura badge that I can afford!
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notyper
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Did you read my post Ganplosive. I'm not picking and choosing. I consider all luxury sedans in the $55k-$65k range to be competitors for the RLX. In that grouping of cars, the RLX is midpack in power and class leading in fuel economy (which is exactly what I said), although a couple of other hybrid offerings get close in economy.
While you may think that a 400+ hp and 25 mpg highway 550i or E550 is not a competitor, I disagree. I assert that people buying cars in this class aren't as conscious about fuel economy - we will see if I'm right. I do think they pay attention to power numbers though, and they are very brand conscious (I don't think you can argue the latter). If you try and limit the competition to just hybrids, then Acura won't sell many RLX at all (as evidenced by other luxury hybrid sales numbers). They must steal customers from the German luxury marques.
Given this, they can't miss. Acura is already lacking in brand cachet, I question whether the looks of the vehicle can go toe to toe with the Germans (Hyundai decided to copy, which is not necessarily the best ploy either, but if you can't be original....). So, they've got to nail the interior, the price, and the ride/handling. If this thing is priced on par with an optioned up 6cyl from the Germans, or a entry level V8, Acura has to be perfect everywhere else. Remember that the Germans love to subsidize their high entry prices with incredible lease deals - something Acura doesn't do. If you just look at MSRP, German cars look like horrible values. But when you do a lease, they're incredible.
SC
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NealX
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Ganplosive wrote:
... the ILX ... just might bring back some old-school feelings, where they're not necessarily extremely impressive on paper but it's the whole package that counts.
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If you are referring to feelings prior to the introduction of the newest Civic then you are correct.
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JeffX
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notyper wrote:
Did you read my post Ganplosive. I'm not picking and choosing. I consider all luxury sedans in the $55k-$65k range to be competitors for the RLX. In that grouping of cars, the RLX is midpack in power and class leading in fuel economy (which is exactly what I said), although a couple of other hybrid offerings get close in economy.
While you may think that a 400+ hp and 25 mpg highway 550i or E550 is not a competitor, I disagree. I assert that people buying cars in this class aren't as conscious about fuel economy - we will see if I'm right. I do think they pay attention to power numbers though, and they are very brand conscious (I don't think you can argue the latter). If you try and limit the competition to just hybrids, then Acura won't sell many RLX at all (as evidenced by other luxury hybrid sales numbers). They must steal customers from the German luxury marques.
Given this, they can't miss. Acura is already lacking in brand cachet, I question whether the looks of the vehicle can go toe to toe with the Germans (Hyundai decided to copy, which is not necessarily the best ploy either, but if you can't be original....). So, they've got to nail the interior, the price, and the ride/handling. If this thing is priced on par with an optioned up 6cyl from the Germans, or a entry level V8, Acura has to be perfect everywhere else. Remember that the Germans love to subsidize their high entry prices with incredible lease deals - something Acura doesn't do. If you just look at MSRP, German cars look like horrible values. But when you do a lease, they're incredible.
SC
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It remains to be seen how much of a benefit it will be, but the RLX will BLOW AWAY EVERYBODY in terms of rear seat legroom. So competitive power, the most advanced torque vectoring system, competitive fuel economy. decent but not great styling, unknown pricing (I assume it will be competitive with GS450h, though)
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cksi1372
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CarPhreakD wrote:
cksi1372 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
cksi1372 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
cksi1372 wrote:
notyper wrote:
Most relevant direct comparison to current vehicles is the Infiniti M Hybrid. 305 hp 3.5 liter V6, 360 hp combined output. 7spd auto, but doesn't use a torque converter. About 4150 lbs weight. Rated at 27/32/29 (and this is a modified older Nissan V6, not the newer VVEL stuff, so fuel economy is not a strong point for this engine). Starting price $55k, optioned up $65k.
The main difference here is AWD and the torque vectoring that the Acura offers. Given that the current generation RL weighs about 4100 lbs with SH-AWD, I would expect that even with some weight saving technology, this slightly larger dimensioned RLX, with the extra weight of batteries and such will come in slightly heavier. I think 4200 lbs would be good all things considered, but 4300 lbs wouldn't surprise me.
The Infiniti, with a traction limited launch, gets to 60 in the low 5's and the 1/4 in the mid-13's@102-103 mph. I would expect that the Acura, even if the power to weight ratio is slightly worse, will be a little quicker thanks to AWD. Might even hit high 4's 0-60 if they don't nanny it up on the launch. I'll bet the RL pricing will be similar too.
The question is, will it sell? The M-hybrid (and the M in general) certainly don't. Will the AWD be an attractive enough feature to bring people in to the showroom? Whether you like the looks or not, I don't see them as being different enough to be a draw on their own.
And will it be enough to sway people away from a surging Audi and the A6 3.0T? While the A6 is less powerful and not as fuel efficient (28 hwy though), it's still pretty quick, and people love the look and interior, and it can be had starting at $50k, although it gets expensive optioned up. Or the 5-series and E-class? The twin turbo V8's in these cars start right around $60k and even though it sucks that it matters, they do carry more brand cachet.
I guess it comes down to whether enough people care about fuel economy in this class of car. I can honestly say I just don't know if that'll be a selling point for buyers with the means to purchase these cars. I'm sure Acura is hoping it will. Maybe they'll surprise us and offer the RLX for under $50k (I doubt it though).
On a personal note, I do hope it looks better in person.
SC
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Spot on comments as usual Shawn.
What I don't get is why so many people get so excited about mpg's on a "luxury" car. Sorry, but most people "swimming" in this market (higher end luxury) could give to "#($&" about gas prices or mpg's. Yes, there are some outliers, but when it comes down to it they are buying style, cachet, performance, etc. Do you really think the 1%'ers care about $4.50/gallon gas prices for their $65k vehicle. Hell, most of them probably lease and know they aren't buying a Prius. Perhaps, if the mpg's were something significant, say 50mpg's, they might get some "press", but 30 mpg's, come on.
I spend a lot of time on BMW boards, since I own one, as well, and the only real area mpg's usually come up is in the 3 Series forums. Usually because it's a "kid" that's purchased a used 3'er, didn't worry about premium gas prices when they bought, and now asking if they can step down a grade to "save some money". Between that and maintenance, they shouldn't be in a lowly 3'er, anyway....stick with your Civic, until you can actually afford more than just the price of the car. Ha.
I think the RLX is nice and has some cool features, but doesn't do anything to pump up Acura sales for it significantly. I'm sure A's market research says people want good mpg's, but isn't this pretty much common sense..."Would good gas mileage, good performance, and unique features in a luxury car appeal to you?" Who the hell is going to answer "no" to that. It seems like Acura still doesn't get it. Oh well, the new RDX is really nice and should sell like hotcakes...it's on our short list.
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For those folks, you'd think the 370hp, world first in electric torque vectoring and huge level of technology would be a draw.
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Why? You can get that hp in many other cars in the segment, very few could give two who who's about electric torque vectoring (this could change if Acura markets correctly, but I won't hold my breath with anything Acura marketing does...they intro'd this new vehicle in friggin beige), and again, others have a huge level of tech, as well.
I just don't see this vehicle having any chance at pulling people away from other brands, except maybe those that were looking at a Genesis or Equus type car and aren't married to the German's.
Oh, and did I mention they intro'd this thing in probably the worst color ever. Acura Marketing: Next time consult Neal before doing a car intro. That aside, I do think the car is nice looking inside and out.
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Really? Have you been paying attention to the other cars in this segment?
Audi A6: 310 hp 3.0t, 211hp 2.0t
Mercedes E-class: V6 302hp, V8 402hp
Lexus GS: V6 306hp, hybrid 338hp
Infiniti M37: V6 330hp, hybrid 360hp
BMW 5-series: I4 240hp, I6 300hp, V8 400hp (twin turbo)
In the context of all these vehicles, I would say the RLX hybrid's power output is not only the most powerful out of all the current hybrids, but is enough to actually rival the V8s.
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Absolutely, and you are proving my point with your post. You also forgot the 5 Series hybrid (355hp/30mpg). The more direct competitors (hybrids above) don't really fall "short" to the new RLX, in a major way that I can see on initial comparison. Yes, most are a tad under HP (more so for the Lex), but they are all going to have similar mpg numbers posted...30mpg. Hell, even the 8 cyl BMW has a 25mpg highway rating...and we know how much people pay attn to real world numbers, they often don't. So, Mr/Mrs buyer is looking at the 5 8 cyl vs RLX and saying, "yes, I give up a little more mpg (actually prob a lot), but have more HP, a better driving experience (in their mind, don't know how the RLX drives yet), and more than likely a better or close to lease price (most of these luxury cars are leased), and I bet 8 times out of 10 they go with the "traditional" car.
Hey, I hope I'm wrong and will be more than glad to come back here and eat my words (it happened with the last gen CRV), but I don't see it happening here...with any significant increase in sales at a sustained rate. It's a nice vehicle, but not a game changer in the segment and that's what Acura needs in the luxury segment to REALLY be considered a player/threat, IMO.
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Your logic is very interesting, and this is pretty much something that I've been seeing here on TOV that's sort of always baffled me.
Instead of saying "370 hp, this is more than any current vehicle on the market, and only 30hp short of rivaling twin turbo V8s", you say
"370hp, oh yeah, that's ONLY 70hp more than turbo 6s, and 10-15 more than the current most powerful hybrids in the arena."
The V8s, btw, start at $62k+.
From what you've been saying, originally and I quote,
Why? You can get that hp in many other cars in the segment
And as has been proven, "many other cars" consists of exactly 2, nevermind the AMG and M class cars. And both of those cars rely on large displacement V8s, one of those relies on twin turbocharging, and NONE of them can match the RLX's powertrain efficiency.
And I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but "25 mpg" is a world apart from "30mpg". But then, I thought you weren't bringing fuel economy into the discussion? And what would Acura need to do to make a "game changing" car in your point of view?
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You're right about one thing, I probably should have said "close to that hp...". :) I still think you are putting way too much emphasis on mpg's in this segment. 25 vs 30mpgs is not a "world apart" here. You keep bringing up powertrain efficiency etc, I'm just throwing out some mpg stats from other makes/models. Again, I do NOT think mpg matters a hoot in this class to the majority of purchasers, especially when on paper you will see a +- 5mpg difference....it just won't matter...once again, there will be some outliers where this might make a small difference. Also, the way Acura positions cars, you will get comparisons of both 6 cyl's and 8 cyl's here.
That's a very good question on what would make it a "game changer", but I think exterior design would be one. This is more of an evolution of their existing design, which didn't turn many heads. And sorry to beat a dead horse, but intro'ing in beige with those awful wheels doesn't help the cause. After seeing the interior, I think it is very well done and like the execution of the dual screens, which may attract some new lookers. Maybe I'm expecting too much or still viewing the old Acura/Honda, but a game changer also would have been to intro this vehicle at the same or close to price as what it is replacing...yes, with all that new tech.
Quite honestly, I will also admit to some souring of Acura over the last few years as they continually can't figure out what direction they want to go. Their best vehicle to date, IMO, is a friggin SUV...the MDX. The RDX looks to be a nice step in the right direction and will certainly be on our short list. That's two SUV's from what used to be a "fun, exciting, car-company". The TSX is nice, too, but they ruined the TL and I think the ILX is a mistake in certain respects. They've yet to do another coupe and as much as I think the upcoming NSX is awesome, it's a low vol car.
Perhaps Shawn is stating things much better than I, but I'll stick with my prediction of just so-so sales with the RLX.
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notyper
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Jeff wrote:
It remains to be seen how much of a benefit it will be, but the RLX will BLOW AWAY EVERYBODY in terms of rear seat legroom. So competitive power, the most advanced torque vectoring system, competitive fuel economy. decent but not great styling, unknown pricing (I assume it will be competitive with GS450h, though)
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I'd predict rear leg room having an effect of approximately 0.1% :). At least in the US (just look at sales of long wheelbase versions of other luxury cars which generally exist to increase rear leg room). Apparently rear leg room is a big deal in China (BMW is releasing a long wheelbase 3-series there!) so maybe it'll help sales in that burgeoning market.
I'm a broken record now, but Acura needs to nail the ride/handling, interior and pricing on this one (and the DCT better shift smoothly). They're behind the 8-ball on branding and looks, and I don't think MPG is a top 2-3 selling point. If they miss on any of those items, this thing will sell like the Infiniti M, which, while it would be a big numbers improvement vs the current RL, is not moving well. The hybrid stuff is probably a wash. Some people will want it because of that, some will avoid it for the same reason. And while many of us here might appreciate the benefits of SH-AWD, I don't think the subset of buyers that would choose this powertrain over a twin turbo V8 will care as much as we do. A 0-60 time in the 4-second range will certainly help to hype this car and get people in the showrooms though.
I just have this sinking feeling that it's the wrong combination of features for this class and a big part of the reason for this combination is because they're still stuck with a FWD platform as the starting point. If this was part of a more comprehensive model line (RWD, AWD, eSH-AWD) then I think the potential would be better. They have nowhere to go but up from the current RL, but will they rise far enough?
SC
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JeffX
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notyper wrote:
Jeff wrote:
It remains to be seen how much of a benefit it will be, but the RLX will BLOW AWAY EVERYBODY in terms of rear seat legroom. So competitive power, the most advanced torque vectoring system, competitive fuel economy. decent but not great styling, unknown pricing (I assume it will be competitive with GS450h, though)
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I'd predict rear leg room having an effect of approximately 0.1% :). At least in the US (just look at sales of long wheelbase versions of other luxury cars which generally exist to increase rear leg room). Apparently rear leg room is a big deal in China (BMW is releasing a long wheelbase 3-series there!) so maybe it'll help sales in that burgeoning market.
I'm a broken record now, but Acura needs to nail the ride/handling, interior and pricing on this one (and the DCT better shift smoothly). They're behind the 8-ball on branding and looks, and I don't think MPG is a top 2-3 selling point. If they miss on any of those items, this thing will sell like the Infiniti M, which, while it would be a big numbers improvement vs the current RL, is not moving well. The hybrid stuff is probably a wash. Some people will want it because of that, some will avoid it for the same reason. And while many of us here might appreciate the benefits of SH-AWD, I don't think the subset of buyers that would choose this powertrain over a twin turbo V8 will care as much as we do. A 0-60 time in the 4-second range will certainly help to hype this car and get people in the showrooms though.
I just have this sinking feeling that it's the wrong combination of features for this class and a big part of the reason for this combination is because they're still stuck with a FWD platform as the starting point. If this was part of a more comprehensive model line (RWD, AWD, eSH-AWD) then I think the potential would be better. They have nowhere to go but up from the current RL, but will they rise far enough?
SC
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I am incredibly disappointed that Acura canned the FR platform that they were working on and instead went back to the Global-Midsize well, getting all the styling compromises and mass-market familiarity along with it. With the RLX, They have "premium-upped" the styling probably as much as possible without tilting towards the "overstyled" range that plagues large FWD-based cars like the Azera, Sonata and the new Avalon. Who's to say that an FR platform would have helped the styling though? The new GS (wow, ugly), Infiniti M (weird), E-Class (tha f*ck??), and even the 5-series (sanding block) are all pretty weak from a styling standpoint. The best looking vehicle in the segment is arguably the A6 and it even suffers from some of the proportion issues related to the FF-based configuration. So the RLX doesn't look AWESOME but from a styling standpoint the majority of the competition isn't exactly stout. In other words, I don't think this car will be done in purely by its styling (or lack thereof)
As for the DSG operation, I have driven the prototype for this car, and I can tell you that the DSG shifts like a DSG - it's perfectly smooth, lightning fast, and seamless. The only shortcoming I can think of for DSGs has been addressed by the hybrid powertrain in the RLX - the electric motors and full EV mode means that it can move under pure electric power at low speeds, which means all the lurchiness that's inherent to DSGs at low speeds (backing out of a parking spot, creeping in heavy traffic, etc) has been eliminated. Also, at city speeds, you can run in full EV mode (assuming the battery state is good), where it's pretty much silent and effortless motoring. The refinement in this mode is very high.
The "performance feel" offered by the Sport Hybrid AWD system is an order of magnitude (or better) than what the current RL offers. In other words, even an average driver should be able to feel the effects on a simple test drive.
The current RL is pretty impressive, driven at 11/10ths. At more normal speeds, it feels exactly like what it is - a heavy-assed Accord, with "luxury" overboosted steering and prevailing understeer.
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Ganplosive
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notyper wrote:
Did you read my post Ganplosive. I'm not picking and choosing. I consider all luxury sedans in the $55k-$65k range to be competitors for the RLX. In that grouping of cars, the RLX is midpack in power and class leading in fuel economy (which is exactly what I said), although a couple of other hybrid offerings get close in economy.
While you may think that a 400+ hp and 25 mpg highway 550i or E550 is not a competitor, I disagree. I assert that people buying cars in this class aren't as conscious about fuel economy - we will see if I'm right. I do think they pay attention to power numbers though, and they are very brand conscious (I don't think you can argue the latter). If you try and limit the competition to just hybrids, then Acura won't sell many RLX at all (as evidenced by other luxury hybrid sales numbers). They must steal customers from the German luxury marques.
Given this, they can't miss. Acura is already lacking in brand cachet, I question whether the looks of the vehicle can go toe to toe with the Germans (Hyundai decided to copy, which is not necessarily the best ploy either, but if you can't be original....). So, they've got to nail the interior, the price, and the ride/handling. If this thing is priced on par with an optioned up 6cyl from the Germans, or a entry level V8, Acura has to be perfect everywhere else. Remember that the Germans love to subsidize their high entry prices with incredible lease deals - something Acura doesn't do. If you just look at MSRP, German cars look like horrible values. But when you do a lease, they're incredible.
SC
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I certainly agree with you when you put it this way. I suppose clarification is in order, because when I was talking 50+ and competitive, I was specifically talking about hybrids only because they are at least on paper comparable and similarly equipped.
I actually don't contend what you're saying about the top of the line V8's. You're right, luxury buyers don't necessarily go into this market at all thinking: FIRST QUESTION - HYBRID OR NOT? Certainly at this price range, it IS about the brand cachet and the "I drive a _________" factor. These cars despite their displacement are all in it for the customers money. I suppose we can turn it around and say that I'm selectively choosing the fight, and tilting it in Acura's favor (I confess, guilty as charged). But for ones opting NOT for the top of the line V8 guzzling model, the RLX is I feel is competitive enough to garner 2nd looks. I suppose it's equally unfortunate that those looking for V8's would automatically dismiss Acura.
As for the hybrid competition, this is where I'm cautiously optimistic. Most people have stayed away from hybrid due to price of entry and the lack of real value doing so. It's significantly more expensive in most cases, and rarely offer the return. I want to contend that the RLX is the car that's offering the WHOLE package, but deep down it could just be me wanting dearly for this package to WORK with the market, as our very beloved NSX will soon be eschewing it as well.
Speaking of leases... I worry for Acura. When it costs about the same to LEASE an Acura vs a competitor, the game changes. Acura offers perhaps the best value to someone willing to purchase the vehicle due to their reliability and resale, which again isn't something luxury drivers care about.
Leases simply makes sense in this market, because most of the customers in this range always want the newest thing on their drive way, and things do get old fast to them in about 2-3 years. Luxury automakers were able to leverage the price through leases and then sell them certified pre-owned. Why be seen in an Acura for the next 2-3 years when I can be seen in a BMW?
This is where marketing is absolutely crucial, as they have to convince people that being seen in an Acura is a enviable characteristic..
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DCR
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Ganplosive wrote:
DCR wrote:
SC, only 10 more over the top ball riding Acura posts to go and he gets a free Acura key chain.
Christ is this getting pathetic.
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you mad bro? Ay you're already mad though... might as well get more mad right? I LOVE Acura key chains, it's the only thing with an Acura badge that I can afford!
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Super mad. Can't you tell?
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CarPhreakD
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notyper wrote:
How can you say it's 50 hp over most of its competitors Ganplosive? Unless you think the AWD version of the RL is going to be well under $60k. Personally I think it's going to start at $60k ($59.5k?) and go well over that with options. That puts it square against the 550, E550 and M56 (or M Hybrid). The A6, 535, etc. are all in the $50k starting range.
I think that what you're going to have in the RLX is a car that, for the $$$, is competitive powerwise (somewhere in the middle) and class leading on fuel economy (M hybrid and 5 hybrid will be right there). That's definitely an improvement for Acura without a doubt. However, given the looks, Acura's relative brand decline over the last 5 years, and the strength of the competition, I have concerns about conquest sales which Acura needs.
To really take a bite out of the 5 and E-class (and to a lesser extent the A6) the RLX is going to have to be superior in some very obvious ways on the test drive and in the magazine tests. This is something that Infiniti kind of missed on with the current generation M37/M56. It's a good car, great engine in the V8, objectivel handles well and has a fabulous interior - right at the top of the class. But the exterior shape has some awkward angles and the ride/handling balance is off in a substantial way. When you're playing from behind in the reptuation stakes (like Infiniti or Acura), you can't afford to be behind anywhere. I think the RLX already falls short in the looks side of things. They can't afford a miss anywhere else in the package.
Of course, all that changes if the price is much lower than expected. But I don't think Acura wants to go down that road - it's a long term loser.
SC
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I agree with this too. I am not sure if the RLX has everything that Acura needs to succeed in this current segment. Certainly the base RL still leaves me with reservations, and while I don't have as many qualms with the styling, I certainly don't believe that it's anywhere near "top class", definitely way too conservative in everything but the face. I also think that Acura could only benefit from having its own platform, one that is used for three different sized vehicles (a la VAG MQB) to amortize costs while providing a vehicle lineup distinct from its mainstream roots, while getting those who want RWD and more refinement over the Accord platform to STFU, although the SH SH-AWD makes me wonder if it's still necessary (in this particular application).
For brand cachet, it certainly looks like Acura is doing something different compared to the German makes (Smart Luxury), and it might work but only if it's aggressively marketed and followed with conviction across the entire lineup.
I will say that the RLX is a step forward, better matched vs. the competition compared to the original RL to the competition at the time... but whether it'll be good enough remains to be seen.
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Gumbercules
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cksi1372 wrote:
You're right about one thing, I probably should have said "close to that hp...". :) I still think you are putting way too much emphasis on mpg's in this segment. 25 vs 30mpgs is not a "world apart" here. You keep bringing up powertrain efficiency etc, I'm just throwing out some mpg stats from other makes/models.
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25 vs 30 may not be "worlds apart", except that you are failing to include CITY MPG in your analysis. No way in hell that twin turbo bmw is averaging >20mpg, the difference is now more significant.
Please dont fall the HWY MPG marketing bullsh*t, as an enthusiast I expect better.
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myhui
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Jeff wrote:
The current RL is pretty impressive, driven at 11/10ths. At more normal speeds, it feels exactly like what it is - a heavy-assed Accord, with "luxury" overboosted steering and prevailing understeer.
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I was flogging my 06 RL through mountain passes yesterday and much to my delight, more throttle in the turn lets SH-AWD pivot the car around faster, resulting in neutral four wheel drift at the limit instead of understeer. As long as you get the entry speed just right, and you downshift at the right time, and you apply power at exactly the right time (just like Mr. Vettel does), the exit of the turn feels amazing in an RL with SH-AWD. It even gives Subaru STI drivers something to aspire to.
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Nick GravesX
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CarPhreakD wrote:
notyper wrote:
How can you say it's 50 hp over most of its competitors Ganplosive? Unless you think the AWD version of the RL is going to be well under $60k. Personally I think it's going to start at $60k ($59.5k?) and go well over that with options. That puts it square against the 550, E550 and M56 (or M Hybrid). The A6, 535, etc. are all in the $50k starting range.
I think that what you're going to have in the RLX is a car that, for the $$$, is competitive powerwise (somewhere in the middle) and class leading on fuel economy (M hybrid and 5 hybrid will be right there). That's definitely an improvement for Acura without a doubt. However, given the looks, Acura's relative brand decline over the last 5 years, and the strength of the competition, I have concerns about conquest sales which Acura needs.
To really take a bite out of the 5 and E-class (and to a lesser extent the A6) the RLX is going to have to be superior in some very obvious ways on the test drive and in the magazine tests. This is something that Infiniti kind of missed on with the current generation M37/M56. It's a good car, great engine in the V8, objectivel handles well and has a fabulous interior - right at the top of the class. But the exterior shape has some awkward angles and the ride/handling balance is off in a substantial way. When you're playing from behind in the reptuation stakes (like Infiniti or Acura), you can't afford to be behind anywhere. I think the RLX already falls short in the looks side of things. They can't afford a miss anywhere else in the package.
Of course, all that changes if the price is much lower than expected. But I don't think Acura wants to go down that road - it's a long term loser.
SC
|
I agree with this too. I am not sure if the RLX has everything that Acura needs to succeed in this current segment. Certainly the base RL still leaves me with reservations, and while I don't have as many qualms with the styling, I certainly don't believe that it's anywhere near "top class", definitely way too conservative in everything but the face. I also think that Acura could only benefit from having its own platform, one that is used for three different sized vehicles (a la VAG MQB) to amortize costs while providing a vehicle lineup distinct from its mainstream roots, while getting those who want RWD and more refinement over the Accord platform to STFU, although the SH SH-AWD makes me wonder if it's still necessary (in this particular application).
For brand cachet, it certainly looks like Acura is doing something different compared to the German makes (Smart Luxury), and it might work but only if it's aggressively marketed and followed with conviction across the entire lineup.
I will say that the RLX is a step forward, better matched vs. the competition compared to the original RL to the competition at the time... but whether it'll be good enough remains to be seen.
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^These^
But it's gonna take some considerable signs of a turnaround before Honda has the confidence to invest in an equivalent of the MLB (Q=transverse!) plank.
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