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Most Hybrid Buyers Don't Buy Another 1
Polk Study Says
For Honda hybrid owners, 52 percent stayed with the Honda brand, but less than one in five bought another hybrid from any brand.
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Longhorn
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This is true in my case. Traded in a Toyota Camry Hybrid for a 12 Camry SE. Loved getting an average of 35 mpg per tank,loved the upscale features and quiet ride. But was not about to pay the Hybrid premium,especially now with $4.00 gas and regular cars are getting mighty close to hybrid numbers. I can get 40 mpg on level roadway in a 12 Camry SE on the hwy and averaging 26 in the city. When start/stop becomes standard on vehicles, that gap will shrink more.
There are hybrids that have over 200,000 miles miles on them. However,when hybrids go off warranty,one gets very nervous when you hear a strange sound or noise. $3,000 inverter, $4,000 CVT, etc,it can be very expensive to fix a hybrid if things go wrong.
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A77
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Interesting. the argument is going to be that most buyers didnt find the extra cost to be worth it in terms of gas saved. the current highway mileage obsession in the media isnt going to help either as hybrids have next to no advantage out of town. The reality is that gas mileage hasnt improved much at all in the last 30 years. A 73 civic was overall no worse than todays civic. My 87 camry actually got better gas mileage than my accord or my TSX around town, and they were all roughly the same size four cylinder cars. What has changed is that car's performance has got much better but they have also got far heavier. Quoted highway mileages have got better as cars have generally got more aerodynamic and are much higher geared - so much so that they are gaming the EPA and often can't sustain their highest gear on anything but flat ground. Around town - no noticeable improvement. Gearing and aerodynamic factors don't count for much in urban conditions - it's mostly down to weight and engine efficiency. And vehicles are so much heavier than 20 or 30 years ago, any sort of 0verall improvement is tough.
Hybrids should do better around town, but this doesnt seem to be where the advertising focus is. But the extra purchase cost makes the point moot anyways.
Direct injection offers some scope for improvement, but nothing radical - big changes won't be seen unless weight comes down substantially - which is incredibly tough for manufacturers without shrinking the cars dramatically and/or using more expensive metals. Diesel offers a relatively cheap way of dramatically improving mpg, but emissions are too much of an issue.
For all the hype I don't really see ED making such a massive difference - but hopefully it can offer more than Mazda's skyactiv program. More in absolute terms - it was easier for Skyactiv to boast big improvements, as Mazda before skyactiv was well behind in the economy stakes. What is interesting is Skyactive, like the ED program, isnt just one thing - it's combining a more efficient engine, with a more efficient tranny, weight reduction and presumably better aerodynamics. And auto stop. To get, they claim, hybrid like mileage.
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DCR
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You can bet your ass that I have a 100% chance of not buying a hybrid again. Nothing about the car is worth the premium...nothing.
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GoFaster
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I wonder what the clean diesel repurchase rate is. I am still in the honeymoon period with my diesel car, but right now I don't see any reason why I wouldn't buy another. There doesn't seem to be a downside.
Honda, give me, USA buyer, the Euro Civic Diesel and I don't even need to look at anything else.
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danielgr
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Well, that is hardly surprising if you consider how limited hybrid options are. Taking the Honda example, let's asume you owned a Civic Hybrid and, as many Honda buyers, are a loyal Honda buyer. What are your options when buying another hybrid Honda? Well, for a very long time there have been "get another Civic Hybrid". And even now I don't think many would go down from a Civic to an Insight. If Honda offered hybrid Accords, CR-Vs, entry-level Acura's I believe there would be many more HCH buyers moving to "another hybrid".
We will see when the hybrid ranks keep populating, but personally I find myself in the opposite side. I must admit though that I may be helped by Honda now offering a hybrid version of most of the cars I would consider buying where I live (Japan). For us it went:
- Insight
- Estima
- CR-Z
and the next one may be many things, but will be hybrid at 90%+ chances.
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A77
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GoFaster wrote:
I wonder what the clean diesel repurchase rate is. I am still in the honeymoon period with my diesel car, but right now I don't see any reason why I wouldn't buy another. There doesn't seem to be a downside.
Honda, give me, USA buyer, the Euro Civic Diesel and I don't even need to look at anything else.
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I am sure everyone loves the engines and their economy - but (and most are vw of course) may not be enamored with long term vw reliability reputation (not that mine have been bad), or timing belt replacement cost. As for the lack of choice with one's next hybrid - not so sure about that - within the Honda range that's true but there are quite a few other options for someone who has had a civic hybrid and just likes the hybrid thing - prius, Camry Hybrid, Fusion, various Lexus models.
in Europe there must be stats on repeat business somewhere. Maybe they don't bother as half the market is diesel anyway. So the repeat number is probably 50% or more anyway.
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TonyEX
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danielgr wrote:
Well, that is hardly surprising if you consider how limited hybrid options are. Taking the Honda example, let's asume you owned a Civic Hybrid and, as many Honda buyers, are a loyal Honda buyer. What are your options when buying another hybrid Honda? Well, for a very long time there have been "get another Civic Hybrid". And even now I don't think many would go down from a Civic to an Insight. If Honda offered hybrid Accords, CR-Vs, entry-level Acura's I believe there would be many more HCH buyers moving to "another hybrid".
We will see when the hybrid ranks keep populating, but personally I find myself in the opposite side. I must admit though that I may be helped by Honda now offering a hybrid version of most of the cars I would consider buying where I live (Japan). For us it went:
- Insight
- Estima
- CR-Z
and the next one may be many things, but will be hybrid at 90%+ chances.
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Well... our Civic Hybrid is certainly loaded with features -for a Civic. It has NAVI, auto temp AC, power this and that.. and the interior certainly looks very nice.
It also gets damn good mileage for us. My wife is driving it now and she gets 38 mpg indicated - 40 actual- in her commute.
I doubt a Camry LE is anywhere as nice inside as our 06 HCH.
It is true that the '12 Hybrid is very expensive.. but you have to compare it to the EX, not the LX or DX (if they make that). The point is that the HCH is loaded as a top of the line Civic and it gets its mileage across the board.. not just out on the highway.
I know some folks have issues with their hybrids... what I don't understand is: "Why don't you take it to the dealer and call AHM's local rep???".
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Gumbercules
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I second danielgr's comment, there simply is no choice, especially when moving up in size or class. Insight/Prius are great but too boring to drive for me, teslas/fiskers/Volts are out of my price range, so I got a CR-Z (which I have great fun driving).
But soon I will need a biger car for my new family, and will probably be looking at a used TSX, not because I hate my hybrid experience (instead I love every moment of it) but because I don't have many options available to me.
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A77
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god i am argumentative these days....Only equipment advantage HCH in Canada has over the EX civic for $4000 is one zone climate control and side mirror repeaters - while the EX has rear discs, a 60/40 split rear seat, leather steering wheel and a sunroof. Also has bigger wheels and tires but in this context that may not be a benefit. HCH also has a few LEDs in the grille. In actual spec the HCH is closer to an LX civic. The LX still has the 60/40 seat, but lesser stereo (2 speakers), no alloys, and no climate. And that's a $6000 difference. which buys vast amount of extra gas, sweet alloys, a thumping stereo upgrade and still a load of cash in the bank. Not to mention the long standing $1500 cash program which the HCH doesnt get. It's little wonder it's a not even stocked. of coruse there may be other reasons for buying the HCH - just like the last gen - which was the smoothest quietest Civic ever, and, at least in blue, had the most tasteful interior.
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JeffX
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the new 2motor hybrid system from Honda will go a long way towards addressing this issue. I think people that don't care for the IMA driving experience (underpowered) will like the new system better - I'm speaking particularly for the plugin - but hopefully the "regular" hybrid flavor will drive equally as well
Last edited by JeffX on 04-09-2012 12:03
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Gumbercules
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And, yea, the whole HWY MPG only advertising is pure BS. I drive abt 60% of the time in city/town/urban streets so HWY ratings alone mean sh*t to me. Most people don't realize, but most of your gas burning is in the city.
I had a 2004 TSX, my average was 25mpg, in the same setting I have averaged 39.5mpg COMBINED in my CR-Z. I know the TSX is bigger and more luxorious, but since it's just me and my gf, it didnt make a difference to lose the rear seats and leather.
But for those too lazy to research the fallacy of HWY MPG only here is a table showing that if you drive 50% @ 25mpg and 50% @ 35mpgm then your average is NOT 30mpg, but actually 29mpg.
Conclusion: City mpg is just as, if not MORE, important than BS HWY ONLY MPG.
Miles MPG Gallons Cost ($4/gallon)
City 50 25.0 2.0 $8.00
Hwy 50 35.0 1.4 $5.71
Total 100 29.2 3.4
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MasterOfDaDomain
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It makes perfect sense.
It takes a significant number of years to recoup the premium cost of the hybrid - often 6-7 years or more, depending on various factors (number of miles driven, fuel price etc.).
1. Many buyers get a 7-yr itch and want a new vehicle, so they don't get to recover the cost.
2. Hybrid is a better solution for the urban environment - but urban buyers don't drive as many miles, so they'll have to keep the car longer to recover the cost.
3. As the average cars get higher mileage, the cost saving from a hybrid is lower - mileage the way calculated in the U.S. is not linear for fuel savings. 35 mpg to 40 mpg increase saves less money compared to 20 mpg to 25 mpg increase.
A hybrid is good for marketing and personal image (for the buyers in the green conscious locations).
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Powered by Honda
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I didn't even know there were actual people who bought hybrids to begin with.
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DCR
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Go look at Prius sales numbers.
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DrWhiner
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A77 wrote:
... In actual spec the HCH is closer to an LX civic. The LX still has the 60/40 seat, but lesser stereo (2 speakers), no alloys, and no climate. And that's a $6000 difference. which buys vast amount of extra gas, sweet alloys, a thumping stereo upgrade and still a load of cash in the bank.
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God i am also argumentative today ....
the HCH have a much nicer upholstery, much higher quality than that of EX. [BTW, how good and how light (remember the hybrid buyer is looking for good mpg, not any fancy wheels) are alloys for 15" wheels and 195 tires (do they have Honda's OEM warranty? haha), I think today's aftermarket is moving to larger wheels as even compact cars equip with 16" or 17" wheels from factory are not unheard of]
if you want to crossshop a civic lx (com'on, 2 speakers? its spells cheap .... ) How about the Insight base model? At 18.5k USD, it's even better than the LX at 18.8k.
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DrWhiner
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forgot to add:
BTW, you sound like the salesman who want to persuade the buyer that factory NAV is too expensive and a tomtom is the way to go?
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DCR
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I'd hope so. Factory navi is a huge waste of money.
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DrWhiner
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Just ask Jeff!!! haha.
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DrWhiner
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Just ask Jeff!!! haha.
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DrWhiner
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All depends on how the author/editor want to spin it:
But there is some good news for manufacturers who have invested heavily into developing hybrid technology, said Brad Smith, director of Polk's loyalty management practice.
Hybrids seem to attract new buyers to brands, and they may also help brands retain customers, he said.
"It's a great conquesting tool for brands," Smith said in a phone interview, calling hybrid technology "a competitive edge when it comes to attracting new customers."
That is especially true for Toyota, a hybrid pioneer that has expanded its Prius hybrid line to three body styles and just added a plug-in version.
Polk said in 2011, 60 percent of Prius owners back in the market bought a Toyota brand vehicle. The study also found that 41 percent of the Prius owners back in the market either bought another Prius or a hybrid from another automaker.
For Honda hybrid owners, 52 percent stayed with the Honda brand, but less than one in five bought another hybrid from any brand.
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DCR
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DrWhiner wrote:
Just ask Jeff!!! haha.
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Some people may like it, but I will never opt for it. The price premium for it may have made sense prior to smart phones and portable navi, but now I would never drop that kind of money on something I can get for "free" on my Droid.
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TonyEX
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DCR wrote:
I'd hope so. Factory navi is a huge waste of money.
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I disagree.
On long drives I use both my Droid and factory NAVI.
I find the factory NAVI much better as giving advice... bigger screen, simpler graphics (eyes on the road!!!) and a much, MUCH easier to use (ie: eyes on the road, hands on the steering wheel) user interface.
I only use the Droid to calculate splits (ie: how far to the next gas station...) and to look at traffic conditions (although often times it's completely wrong).
Also, the factory NAVI touch screen is used for other displays as well.
Now then, as much as I love my Droid, it's screen is simply too small and the designers of its APPS are still making it too busy.
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Fan Koni
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Jeff wrote:
the new 2motor hybrid system from Honda will go a long way towards addressing this issue. I think people that don't care for the IMA driving experience (underpowered) will like the new system better - I'm speaking particularly for the plugin - but hopefully the "regular" hybrid flavor will drive equally as well
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Is there any chance that Honda could give the two motor hybrid system a MT?
The V6 & 3 motors will probably only be combinded with the DCT, the plugin hybrid probably always be mated to a CVT.
But an MT hybrid could really change a lot of peoples mind in Diesel heavy countries.
The new IMA will be more powerful but maybe it will offer a sports version of the E-Motor. I really hope the CRZ is not the last & only hybrid MT.
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A77
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DrWhiner wrote:
forgot to add:
BTW, you sound like the salesman who want to persuade the buyer that factory NAV is too expensive and a tomtom is the way to go?
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I think others have answered this for me - sure the Navi is a cash cow for the manufacturers but there's no getting away from the fact that once you have the directions in (ridiculously hard compared to my nexus) its far better than any portable or cellular system. Most customers still find the voice control system in hondas extremely cool - that fact that it has not changed at all though in 7 years is frightening though - I mean look what else has. Its no different from in car DVDs - sure they seem silly expensive compared to after market or a couple of iPADS but this just wont work for people with really young kids - where they need to control it from the front.
Besides which - CRV apart navi is tending to be standard on the higher trims anyway - like all V6 leather Accord coupes, CRV EXLs, Ridgeline EXLs all have Navi standard. Leather odysseys all have rear DVD standard.
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Dren
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DCR wrote:
DrWhiner wrote:
Just ask Jeff!!! haha.
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Some people may like it, but I will never opt for it. The price premium for it may have made sense prior to smart phones and portable navi, but now I would never drop that kind of money on something I can get for "free" on my Droid.
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The salesman talked me out of navi on my Civic Si. I was surprised. I'm glad he did, I just use my Droid now if I need it. I typically like to know where I'm going before I start driving though.
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