mero77
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I feel like this is happening in this thread:
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mero77
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I feel like some very vocal members want something that, from an investment standpoint, would take more than a decade to recoup the cost of developing. A FR platform, at this point would be used for 3 potential vehicles. There really isn't a business case for Honda/Acura to play that card in today's market.
Established luxury companies like BMW, Mercedes, and VW/Audi have product portfolios that allow them to relatively quickly see a return on the investment in a large RWD platform. BMW feeds into Rolls Royce, Mercedes into Maybach, and VW/Audi into Bentley. Those strategies allow them to use the same engineering to create very expensive and profitable vehicles. Also, those brands are also very established in regions like the Middle East and China who buy large quantities of those vehicles for their government officials and executive level customers. Lexus shares architecture from LS to GS, but that platform is pretty old and well in the money-making years of its life cycle, also the last gen GS wasnt causing the European makes to lose any sleep.
Acura doesnt have that kind of cache' because the brand has been mismanaged by marketing, product planning, and design/engineering. For Acura to create vehicle with that kind of investment would be a very large gamble. Looking at.... oh say, Hyundai/Kia, they are in the midst of a strong RWD product push with the Genesis, Equus, and K9; but they have taken the format like the Europeans and spread the one platform over the 3 product lines. In the US, the Equus sold 3,500 units in 2011, that isnt a huge number of cars by any stretch of the imagination, but it is 5% of the RWD luxury sedan in the US. Consider that most things Hyundai/Kia have touched recently have turned into platinum, which has given them tremendous buzz and word of mouth with the public. Also, those vehicles also have the luxury of being the government favored vehicles of choice in Korea which means they are much higher volume vehicles there.
Acura would optimistically sell 100k units annually between RLX, TLX, and ILX. The ILX being so small, probably wouldn't be able to use the same platform as the TLX/RLX since the platform would be tailored to that segment/scale of vehicle. So that would mean an expensive platform for 60K units that may not reach those targets. And I don't think that RWD automatically equal success, Infiniti does a lot with one RWD platform that is shared from sedan to coupe to SUV, but they aren't selling in a volume that is vastly superior to Acura and the platform is hindered by weight because it has to accommodate so many vehicle types.
That said, Acura does need its own platform. It could be something like the Audi strategy that advocates FWD and AWD variants in lieu of a RWD based strategy. Having premium level vehicles be hindered proportionally because of mainstream vehicle engineering packaging is getting kinda dated, even Toyota/Lexus have done alot to separate the vehicle brands a bit.
Actually, I think the RLX is quite stately and could be confused with the latest Lexus GS and ES design language at a glance, which from a brand association standpoint, Acura could actually use a little of at the moment. The wheels are needlessly busy, and with simpler and more substantial wheels would look quite assertive.
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DCR
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Not bad for your first post.
Shouldn't take long to figure out who you are.
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mero77
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I might also be working on a large, long wheelbase, RWD, V8 powered, executive sedan with a very optimistic global sales goal.
Which is fine, except that China just forbid its government officials from buying foreign makes with government dollars.
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Ganplosive
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TurkMan71 wrote:
At first sight I was VERY disappointed (but not terribly surprised). I also understand DCR's line of questioning, on paper when you compare the current gen RL (pre MMC) to this concept, they are remarkably similar - both have some interesting/unique tech that runs contrary to segment norms; both have a conservative almost bland 'me too' design...This didn't work so great for the current RL...so what is a car brand like Acura to do? Look at brands like Buick, Hyundai, and Kia - these brand's sales are booming, why? Because they have unique engineering features? I suggest something more primal...Quite simply, they are beautiful. Say what you will about bits and parts of the designs of these brands, but it's pretty apparent that many find these designs very appealing, somewhat different from the 'me too' designs out there without getting way to wacky for most. Acura needs to bring beautiful back. Now imagine if Acura had all the tech it has going for it with an Audi A7 or last gen Mercedes CLS exterior...I think the last gen TL got close to that kind of visual appeal...
All that being said, the RLX surprised me in that promotional video, I saw a little bit of the FSX concept in the front from back in the day, I also saw a bit of Nissan GT-R in the squared off front wheel arch (was really surprised by this, was almost certain it would be getting a ILX/ZDX's useless and cloying rear wheel arch treatment), the side profile has a muted version of the Accord Coupe concept's lower light catcher which is a visual connection that Acura needs to fight against...maybe going back to the last gen TSX/TL's clean cut rocker panels would be nice...
Bottom line: I take issue with comments like 'Acura gets bashed either way...being conservative with design or being agressive'. Hey Acura pick the third option: be beautiful.
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I respectfully disagree. Anyone buying an Equus or Genensis Sedan thinking what they bought is unique, out there, and beautiful just either couldn't afford an S-class or the value was too good.
The 2nd Gen Legend sold so well because a lot of people got the BMW-look and the BMW features without the BMW price. Granted, today Acura is trying to finally step out on it's own merits without looking like anybody. Whether or not the looks are good enough is subjective once again. Most of us probably aren't 40-55 yr old PHD / Business Exec that this car was probably targeted to anyways. They certainly have a different buying criteria.
sort of off-topic:
Back in 06 my parents, 55 yr olds, were looking for a new car. I suggested an RL, and these are their complaints-
1. The interior feels too small, not roomy enough for a big car
2. The size of the car itself, isn't "big" enough
3. It's too expensive for an Acura
4. Hasn't it been out for a while?
5. TOO techy, too many things to learn
Some pro's
1. Reliability
2. Fairly good looks
3. Low cost of maintenance.
They ended up with a BMW 545i. Sure it costed more but at that price range they'd rather have their friends know that they're driving BMW's, even though you gotta pay to play. But that's what luxury is.
Back on topic though, I find Audi's fairly bland. Sure they're easy on the eyes, and I'll admit - Acura's not exactly better either. But then what exactly is a beautiful car? a 452 is beautiful, a aventador is beautiful, but I didn't necessarily find any of the cars I posted on pg 2 "breath-taking" or beautiful, especially in a place like Los Angeles where every block you'd find 2-3 leased BMW's. In this case the Acura might even stand out
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Ganplosive
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
Gumbercules wrote:
But I think the styling is still a little too muted, it needs to grab attention a little more. Why else would people buy a car in this class? Because they have $$$$ to spend and want others to know, they dont care about Precision Steering or Tourque Vectoring, they want people to know that "I am an affluent person." |
I really wasn't impressed by the RLX design, but I'm also not impressed by the 5/7-series, E-class, or Audi A7. Large sedans tend to be fairly conservative in exterior sheet metal. The RLX looks too much like an 8G Accord to me.
Frankly, the "large sedan" form factor is a dinosaur. Once people need something larger than a mid-size or even compact sedan, they go for a CUV. The "Flagship" of Acura has not been the RL. It's been the MDX.
The RLX can have all the technology in the world, and it will still sell in small numbers. Yes, I think this one will sell more than the previous RL, but I don't have high expectations. I have pretty good instincts for what sells and what doesn't... the 4G CR-V, ILX, and 2G RDX were all fantastic -- the right package of looks, features, and utility. I don't get the same feeling about the RLX. It'll be a nice technology showcase, but not a blockbuster.
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well as long as atomiclightbulb predicted it, I guess there's no point in discussing. lolol
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Ganplosive
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mero77 wrote:
I might also be working on a large, long wheelbase, RWD, V8 powered, executive sedan with a very optimistic global sales goal.
Which is fine, except that China just forbid its government officials from buying foreign makes with government dollars.
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Audi really is the only one to lose from this, as gov officials buy them in BULK
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A77
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Ganplosive wrote: But then what exactly is a beautiful car? a 452 is beautiful, a aventador is beautiful, but I didn't necessarily find any of the cars I posted on pg 2 "breath-taking" or beautiful, especially in a place like Los Angeles where every block you'd find 2-3 leased BMW's. In this case the Acura might even stand out
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In those pictures I think all look spectacularly ugly , apart from the GS350. At least the RLX looks a bit stately. The gold does it no favours but not as bad as that greeny blue used for the Impala.
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D-ROC
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Boring......but it will help improve their 30+/month sold sales quota. Acura needs to overhaul their design studio pronto!
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ams23
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Some of the Acura PR pictures for the RLX are not so flattering, and the wheels they chose for this concept are not great IMHO. But looking at the Motor Trend real life pics, the RLX actually looks pretty decent: http://www.motortrend.com/auto_shows/new_york/2012/1204_2013_acura_rlx_concept/
The biggest problem I see is that the new front grille is still too similar to the old RL. So the front looks alone could affect sales of the RLX. For the next RLX makeover, it would be really nice to see a fresher grille design. Perhaps a slimmer and sleaker grille that looks more similar to the NSX concept, with the Acura badge placed on the hood rather than on the grille. Considering how well-received the new Lexus vehicles are with a new and fresh grille design, it would be wise for Acura to do the same.
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CarPhreakD
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Ganplosive wrote:
mero77 wrote:
I might also be working on a large, long wheelbase, RWD, V8 powered, executive sedan with a very optimistic global sales goal.
Which is fine, except that China just forbid its government officials from buying foreign makes with government dollars.
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Audi really is the only one to lose from this, as gov officials buy them in BULK
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Is that really a problem? The automaker will just pair up with a Chinese joint venture partner and start a new brand.
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CarPhreakD
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I still don't understand why people keep pushing the Hyundai Genesis as a "luxury" vehicle. It is not. It competes against the Chrysler 300 and soon, the Impala. Full size, RWD sedan category. In fact the newest 300s might have the Genesis beat.
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Ganplosive
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As if they didn't already! lolol Sure as hell, Chinese bureaucrats buying Chery's and Geely's won't raise those companies reputation anytime soon.
+1 regarding the Hyundai. I guess now a days when the television advertisers tell me what to compare their products to, I'll just take it at face value and do it without doing due research.
Hyundai is trying to reach for the stars in one step (generation), and I don't get why so many are being taken up with it. In a year or two everyone will start comparing Hyundais to MB and Lexus, and Kia's to Honda's and Toyota's.
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mero77
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Ganplosive wrote:
mero77 wrote:
I might also be working on a large, long wheelbase, RWD, V8 powered, executive sedan with a very optimistic global sales goal.
Which is fine, except that China just forbid its government officials from buying foreign makes with government dollars.
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Audi really is the only one to lose from this, as gov officials buy them in BULK
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Is that really a problem? The automaker will just pair up with a Chinese joint venture partner and start a new brand.
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Yeah, and then you have the problem of fighting the already established brands, Buick, BMW, Audi, etc... GM in particular has already paired with a Chinese brand, Wu Ling, but you haven't seen a rebadged Lacrosse or Cadillac emerge. You can't start a new brand with no reputation or credibility and expect to alleviate consumers of their monies, you have to start entry level.
Case in point, Fisker. Kthxbai
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VTECRacer
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DCR wrote:
Not bad for your first post.
Shouldn't take long to figure out who you are.
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LOL.
You're the only person people are complaining about in here. Please just allow the people who actually like the car to express their positive opinions about it without having to worry that you're going to come in and attack them.
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Ganplosive
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DCR wrote:
What is in the current RL tech wise? It never sold on exterior, and neither will this one, and the interior of this one doesn't look special in any way.
So...what is going to drive sales? MPG?
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Don't you drive a Honda Civic Hybrid? Why was your reason for buying that car? the MPG?
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DCR
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VTECRacer wrote:
DCR wrote:
Not bad for your first post.
Shouldn't take long to figure out who you are.
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LOL.
You're the only person people are complaining about in here. Please just allow the people who actually like the car to express their positive opinions about it without having to worry that you're going to come in and attack them.
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Actually, I was typing that between his posts, since the first one looked like an obvious troll, right?
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Ganplosive
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Potenza wrote:
sa3eedi wrote:
I think this is the best way of distinguishing themselves. Creating another FR v8 sedan in an already overcrowded segment certainly wouldn't accomplish that.
Introducing a system like E-Shawd with its ability to instantaneously power the outer wheel and regenerate from the inner one, is a unique and innovative use of technology that they can claim for themselves. According to Jeff's impressions of the prototype, it's not a gimmick and rotates the car even more effectively than the conventional Shawd
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The important question is "Why aren't people buying the current RL?" And how have those issues been remedied with the RLX?
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1. Not a big enough interior - addressed. Multiple sources have now said the inside is bigger, almost same size as LS.
2. Not enough power @ 300 - addressed, now with 370 the highest of any V6 hybrid offering out there
3. Average MPG - addressed, now with class leading 30 city and possibly better numbers for highway combined.
4. Bland styling - somewhat addressed. Subjective. Based on people's impressions first hand the RLX is now more stately, businesslike and carry a stronger presence fitting of a flagship as opposed to the outgoing model.
5. Price - being addressed, remains to be seen. But if the price falls in line with its competitors Acura is now giving the most in both options (hybrid, of base) for what will most likely be the lowest price (short of the equus). Only thing missing is a top of the line V8 option to compete.
6. Not as nice interior - addressed, yet production remains to be seen. Updated interior finishes, first with dual screens, first to use touch screen settings, 14-speaker system.
7. Brand prestige - being addressed, with a slew of new products down the pipes and a 2nd generation NSX coming down the line to bolster the product lineup.
8. Marketing - should be addressed, if evidenced by the amount that Acura seems to be spending this time on their new products.
9. Not unique enough - addressed, most unique awd hybrid drive technology that's unique to Acura and being marketed. If that wasn't your cup of tea they're implementing PAWS to the base version so that it's better than your average base models.
Am I missing anything else? If some of you continue to insist that all Acura did was change the sheet metal and tweaked it a little like what leftlanenews chooses to continue to believe, then there's really no other point in discussing beliefs.
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owequitit
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DCR wrote:
Ganplosive wrote:
Sure I'll bite. Let's say Acura made your FR car. 400 HP, 22/27/25 mpg combined.
What's the selling point on that car? Another FR V8 car under the Acura brand. Honestly tell me what's going to make a BMW / Lexus / Mercedes / Audi lover decide to pick up an Acura V8 as opposed to their respective brands? THE ACURA BRAND? Or because it's a V8 made by Honda, which is so well known for their V8's outside of racing circles right?
Give it a rest guys it's been 5 years, move onto something else. I can't believe people are still here griping for a V8 FR platform as if that's the sole reason people aren't buying the RL LOL just LOL.
I'd rather have this SH^2-AWD 30/30/30 RLX with something distinctively Acura than an Acura V8 FR car. I'd go to BMW for a V8 FR setup.
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Why aren't people buying the current RL?
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Size, power, styling.
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TurkMan71
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Ganplosive wrote:
TurkMan71 wrote:
At first sight I was VERY disappointed (but not terribly surprised). I also understand DCR's line of questioning, on paper when you compare the current gen RL (pre MMC) to this concept, they are remarkably similar - both have some interesting/unique tech that runs contrary to segment norms; both have a conservative almost bland 'me too' design...This didn't work so great for the current RL...so what is a car brand like Acura to do? Look at brands like Buick, Hyundai, and Kia - these brand's sales are booming, why? Because they have unique engineering features? I suggest something more primal...Quite simply, they are beautiful. Say what you will about bits and parts of the designs of these brands, but it's pretty apparent that many find these designs very appealing, somewhat different from the 'me too' designs out there without getting way to wacky for most. Acura needs to bring beautiful back. Now imagine if Acura had all the tech it has going for it with an Audi A7 or last gen Mercedes CLS exterior...I think the last gen TL got close to that kind of visual appeal...
All that being said, the RLX surprised me in that promotional video, I saw a little bit of the FSX concept in the front from back in the day, I also saw a bit of Nissan GT-R in the squared off front wheel arch (was really surprised by this, was almost certain it would be getting a ILX/ZDX's useless and cloying rear wheel arch treatment), the side profile has a muted version of the Accord Coupe concept's lower light catcher which is a visual connection that Acura needs to fight against...maybe going back to the last gen TSX/TL's clean cut rocker panels would be nice...
Bottom line: I take issue with comments like 'Acura gets bashed either way...being conservative with design or being agressive'. Hey Acura pick the third option: be beautiful.
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I respectfully disagree. Anyone buying an Equus or Genensis Sedan thinking what they bought is unique, out there, and beautiful just either couldn't afford an S-class or the value was too good.
The 2nd Gen Legend sold so well because a lot of people got the BMW-look and the BMW features without the BMW price. Granted, today Acura is trying to finally step out on it's own merits without looking like anybody. Whether or not the looks are good enough is subjective once again. Most of us probably aren't 40-55 yr old PHD / Business Exec that this car was probably targeted to anyways. They certainly have a different buying criteria.
sort of off-topic:
Back in 06 my parents, 55 yr olds, were looking for a new car. I suggested an RL, and these are their complaints-
1. The interior feels too small, not roomy enough for a big car
2. The size of the car itself, isn't "big" enough
3. It's too expensive for an Acura
4. Hasn't it been out for a while?
5. TOO techy, too many things to learn
Some pro's
1. Reliability
2. Fairly good looks
3. Low cost of maintenance.
They ended up with a BMW 545i. Sure it costed more but at that price range they'd rather have their friends know that they're driving BMW's, even though you gotta pay to play. But that's what luxury is.
Back on topic though, I find Audi's fairly bland. Sure they're easy on the eyes, and I'll admit - Acura's not exactly better either. But then what exactly is a beautiful car? a 452 is beautiful, a aventador is beautiful, but I didn't necessarily find any of the cars I posted on pg 2 "breath-taking" or beautiful, especially in a place like Los Angeles where every block you'd find 2-3 leased BMW's. In this case the Acura might even stand out
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Beautiful? It's subjective of course, but sales can bolster my hypothesis at least in the mainstream segment...value/perceived reliability also count, but I think engineering rep is still an unknown with the brands i mentioned so why is the La Crosse, Sonata, Optima selling so well? It's not because they're bland or ugly in the public's eye.
I do agree with the you about the Equus and Genesis...I'd say value helps them out, but I don't think styling hinders their sales either.
But back to your question of what is beautiful in the upper crust sedan segment. I think it's safe to say that Audi's A7 (more elegant than a fastback has a right to be) and Mercedes' CLS (1st gen) are style leaders...Toyota's new Avalon seems to be inspired by the A7 and many companies have or will take a go at a 4-dr coupe ala CLS...
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CarPhreakD
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owequitit wrote:
DCR wrote:
Ganplosive wrote:
Sure I'll bite. Let's say Acura made your FR car. 400 HP, 22/27/25 mpg combined.
What's the selling point on that car? Another FR V8 car under the Acura brand. Honestly tell me what's going to make a BMW / Lexus / Mercedes / Audi lover decide to pick up an Acura V8 as opposed to their respective brands? THE ACURA BRAND? Or because it's a V8 made by Honda, which is so well known for their V8's outside of racing circles right?
Give it a rest guys it's been 5 years, move onto something else. I can't believe people are still here griping for a V8 FR platform as if that's the sole reason people aren't buying the RL LOL just LOL.
I'd rather have this SH^2-AWD 30/30/30 RLX with something distinctively Acura than an Acura V8 FR car. I'd go to BMW for a V8 FR setup.
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Why aren't people buying the current RL?
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Size, power, styling.
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Price is the biggest issue. The RL was never a good value, particularly in context of the TL.
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CarPhreakD
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TurkMan71 wrote:
Ganplosive wrote:
TurkMan71 wrote:
At first sight I was VERY disappointed (but not terribly surprised). I also understand DCR's line of questioning, on paper when you compare the current gen RL (pre MMC) to this concept, they are remarkably similar - both have some interesting/unique tech that runs contrary to segment norms; both have a conservative almost bland 'me too' design...This didn't work so great for the current RL...so what is a car brand like Acura to do? Look at brands like Buick, Hyundai, and Kia - these brand's sales are booming, why? Because they have unique engineering features? I suggest something more primal...Quite simply, they are beautiful. Say what you will about bits and parts of the designs of these brands, but it's pretty apparent that many find these designs very appealing, somewhat different from the 'me too' designs out there without getting way to wacky for most. Acura needs to bring beautiful back. Now imagine if Acura had all the tech it has going for it with an Audi A7 or last gen Mercedes CLS exterior...I think the last gen TL got close to that kind of visual appeal...
All that being said, the RLX surprised me in that promotional video, I saw a little bit of the FSX concept in the front from back in the day, I also saw a bit of Nissan GT-R in the squared off front wheel arch (was really surprised by this, was almost certain it would be getting a ILX/ZDX's useless and cloying rear wheel arch treatment), the side profile has a muted version of the Accord Coupe concept's lower light catcher which is a visual connection that Acura needs to fight against...maybe going back to the last gen TSX/TL's clean cut rocker panels would be nice...
Bottom line: I take issue with comments like 'Acura gets bashed either way...being conservative with design or being agressive'. Hey Acura pick the third option: be beautiful.
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I respectfully disagree. Anyone buying an Equus or Genensis Sedan thinking what they bought is unique, out there, and beautiful just either couldn't afford an S-class or the value was too good.
The 2nd Gen Legend sold so well because a lot of people got the BMW-look and the BMW features without the BMW price. Granted, today Acura is trying to finally step out on it's own merits without looking like anybody. Whether or not the looks are good enough is subjective once again. Most of us probably aren't 40-55 yr old PHD / Business Exec that this car was probably targeted to anyways. They certainly have a different buying criteria.
sort of off-topic:
Back in 06 my parents, 55 yr olds, were looking for a new car. I suggested an RL, and these are their complaints-
1. The interior feels too small, not roomy enough for a big car
2. The size of the car itself, isn't "big" enough
3. It's too expensive for an Acura
4. Hasn't it been out for a while?
5. TOO techy, too many things to learn
Some pro's
1. Reliability
2. Fairly good looks
3. Low cost of maintenance.
They ended up with a BMW 545i. Sure it costed more but at that price range they'd rather have their friends know that they're driving BMW's, even though you gotta pay to play. But that's what luxury is.
Back on topic though, I find Audi's fairly bland. Sure they're easy on the eyes, and I'll admit - Acura's not exactly better either. But then what exactly is a beautiful car? a 452 is beautiful, a aventador is beautiful, but I didn't necessarily find any of the cars I posted on pg 2 "breath-taking" or beautiful, especially in a place like Los Angeles where every block you'd find 2-3 leased BMW's. In this case the Acura might even stand out
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Beautiful? It's subjective of course, but sales can bolster my hypothesis at least in the mainstream segment...value/perceived reliability also count, but I think engineering rep is still an unknown with the brands i mentioned so why is the La Crosse, Sonata, Optima selling so well? It's not because they're bland or ugly in the public's eye.
I do agree with the you about the Equus and Genesis...I'd say value helps them out, but I don't think styling hinders their sales either.
But back to your question of what is beautiful in the upper crust sedan segment. I think it's safe to say that Audi's A7 (more elegant than a fastback has a right to be) and Mercedes' CLS (1st gen) are style leaders...Toyota's new Avalon seems to be inspired by the A7 and many companies have or will take a go at a 4-dr coupe ala CLS...
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I guess a better question is why are you comparing volumes and styling of cars from obviously different target consumers? Of course a Sonata is going to sell more than any of the luxury makes, it's a mainstream brand. The RLX has to compete against the midsize luxury sedans.
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owequitit
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CarPhreakD wrote:
owequitit wrote:
DCR wrote:
Ganplosive wrote:
Sure I'll bite. Let's say Acura made your FR car. 400 HP, 22/27/25 mpg combined.
What's the selling point on that car? Another FR V8 car under the Acura brand. Honestly tell me what's going to make a BMW / Lexus / Mercedes / Audi lover decide to pick up an Acura V8 as opposed to their respective brands? THE ACURA BRAND? Or because it's a V8 made by Honda, which is so well known for their V8's outside of racing circles right?
Give it a rest guys it's been 5 years, move onto something else. I can't believe people are still here griping for a V8 FR platform as if that's the sole reason people aren't buying the RL LOL just LOL.
I'd rather have this SH^2-AWD 30/30/30 RLX with something distinctively Acura than an Acura V8 FR car. I'd go to BMW for a V8 FR setup.
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Why aren't people buying the current RL?
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Size, power, styling.
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Price is the biggest issue. The RL was never a good value, particularly in context of the TL.
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There are many distinct advantages to the RL, not least of which is far superior build quality and fit/finish.
Fix those three things (which this car may largely do) and the value proposition is taken care of. Lowering the price is usually not the best course when you are trying to up brand prestige. It is better strategically (and far more profitable) to up the feature content/design/performance and size to address the "value" equation.
That said, the RL was around for 4 years prior to the debut of the current gen TL, and it still didn't sell well. Why?
Size, power, styling.
I know that not everybody buys based on reviews, but if you go look at all of the accumulated reviews of the RL, the first most common complaint is that the car's back seat is too small. That is something that this car unquestionably addresses, with near LS back seat space. The second biggest complaint is that with 300HP from a V6, which is admirable, you have to wind the car out a bit too much to extract performance. While the engine has always gotten good reviews, the acceleration is not as effortless as people in this category expect, even though it is a fantastic engine. The weight has a lot to do with that. Third, you will hear complaints that SH-AWD is a great technology, but you have to run the car hard to recoup the advantages. True, and probably not a huge advantage for most people, as they aren't going to drive that hard. Finally, you have styling. I have no problem with conservative (actually loved the 2005-MMC RL), but the styling was not really very good. Even more important that the overall theme, I think the proportions made it look bad.
It will be interesting to see how this car performs and how people perceive its drivetrain, but I think most of the biggest complaints have been pretty well addressed.
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Ganplosive
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TurkMan71 wrote:
...But back to your question of what is beautiful in the upper crust sedan segment. I think it's safe to say that Audi's A7 (more elegant than a fastback has a right to be) and Mercedes' CLS (1st gen) are style leaders...Toyota's new Avalon seems to be inspired by the A7 and many companies have or will take a go at a 4-dr coupe ala CLS...
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It's funny you mentioned that because around the web everyone's blasting the RLX for looking like an Avalon. So I went around and read web reactions (I know, completely irrelevant to the real world) to the new Avalon and lo and behold, everyone hates it. hahah.
I myself believe that the Acura design language is coming around (slowly). Finally for once, they have a family image that tells everyone "THIS IS AN ACURA". Whether or not it's beautiful is debatable, but I feel like right now we're only getting into the 2nd generation of refinement. I don't expect them to really hit the mark until gen 3, which the TLX and FMC TSX should get around to.
Lexus took what? 20 years or so to get to where they are today where the majority of people think the new GS-led image looks good? Infiniti took a long time to finally hit that G mark, and also had a lil problem deviating away into too-curvy. I think Acura's still in its infant stage of working with a family look, and there's definitely potential with this design.
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Ganplosive
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and to add to that note, I applaud the RLX for not being the one to lead that styling change. The RL was already selling like month old sponge cake, it's just not the car you'd want to take a risk on, especially when it's trying to come back and fight for market share. Even Lexus, BMW, and MB are smart enough to not use their top of the line flagships to lead styling changes. It always tends to happen with the mid-range product, the 3 / 5, the E class, the GS, or the A4 / A6's.
There's more to product planning and marketing strategy than to make waves just for the sake of making waves.
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Nick GravesX
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Oddly, I think it's taken a loong time for Acura to realise that; they've been behaving like some sort of nouveau 'upstart' company in those respects; tyrying too hard like Howard Wolowicz.
And I agree; they need a period of almost German sausage-slicing, in order for people to get used to an Acura corporate style usefully different from Honda's.
They can start to move things forward once they've established a credible sedan style on the more conservative models.
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TurkMan71
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CarPhreakD wrote:
TurkMan71 wrote:
Ganplosive wrote:
TurkMan71 wrote:
At first sight I was VERY disappointed (but not terribly surprised). I also understand DCR's line of questioning, on paper when you compare the current gen RL (pre MMC) to this concept, they are remarkably similar - both have some interesting/unique tech that runs contrary to segment norms; both have a conservative almost bland 'me too' design...This didn't work so great for the current RL...so what is a car brand like Acura to do? Look at brands like Buick, Hyundai, and Kia - these brand's sales are booming, why? Because they have unique engineering features? I suggest something more primal...Quite simply, they are beautiful. Say what you will about bits and parts of the designs of these brands, but it's pretty apparent that many find these designs very appealing, somewhat different from the 'me too' designs out there without getting way to wacky for most. Acura needs to bring beautiful back. Now imagine if Acura had all the tech it has going for it with an Audi A7 or last gen Mercedes CLS exterior...I think the last gen TL got close to that kind of visual appeal...
All that being said, the RLX surprised me in that promotional video, I saw a little bit of the FSX concept in the front from back in the day, I also saw a bit of Nissan GT-R in the squared off front wheel arch (was really surprised by this, was almost certain it would be getting a ILX/ZDX's useless and cloying rear wheel arch treatment), the side profile has a muted version of the Accord Coupe concept's lower light catcher which is a visual connection that Acura needs to fight against...maybe going back to the last gen TSX/TL's clean cut rocker panels would be nice...
Bottom line: I take issue with comments like 'Acura gets bashed either way...being conservative with design or being agressive'. Hey Acura pick the third option: be beautiful.
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I respectfully disagree. Anyone buying an Equus or Genensis Sedan thinking what they bought is unique, out there, and beautiful just either couldn't afford an S-class or the value was too good.
The 2nd Gen Legend sold so well because a lot of people got the BMW-look and the BMW features without the BMW price. Granted, today Acura is trying to finally step out on it's own merits without looking like anybody. Whether or not the looks are good enough is subjective once again. Most of us probably aren't 40-55 yr old PHD / Business Exec that this car was probably targeted to anyways. They certainly have a different buying criteria.
sort of off-topic:
Back in 06 my parents, 55 yr olds, were looking for a new car. I suggested an RL, and these are their complaints-
1. The interior feels too small, not roomy enough for a big car
2. The size of the car itself, isn't "big" enough
3. It's too expensive for an Acura
4. Hasn't it been out for a while?
5. TOO techy, too many things to learn
Some pro's
1. Reliability
2. Fairly good looks
3. Low cost of maintenance.
They ended up with a BMW 545i. Sure it costed more but at that price range they'd rather have their friends know that they're driving BMW's, even though you gotta pay to play. But that's what luxury is.
Back on topic though, I find Audi's fairly bland. Sure they're easy on the eyes, and I'll admit - Acura's not exactly better either. But then what exactly is a beautiful car? a 452 is beautiful, a aventador is beautiful, but I didn't necessarily find any of the cars I posted on pg 2 "breath-taking" or beautiful, especially in a place like Los Angeles where every block you'd find 2-3 leased BMW's. In this case the Acura might even stand out
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Beautiful? It's subjective of course, but sales can bolster my hypothesis at least in the mainstream segment...value/perceived reliability also count, but I think engineering rep is still an unknown with the brands i mentioned so why is the La Crosse, Sonata, Optima selling so well? It's not because they're bland or ugly in the public's eye.
I do agree with the you about the Equus and Genesis...I'd say value helps them out, but I don't think styling hinders their sales either.
But back to your question of what is beautiful in the upper crust sedan segment. I think it's safe to say that Audi's A7 (more elegant than a fastback has a right to be) and Mercedes' CLS (1st gen) are style leaders...Toyota's new Avalon seems to be inspired by the A7 and many companies have or will take a go at a 4-dr coupe ala CLS...
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I guess a better question is why are you comparing volumes and styling of cars from obviously different target consumers? Of course a Sonata is going to sell more than any of the luxury makes, it's a mainstream brand. The RLX has to compete against the midsize luxury sedans.
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I guess I'm trying to say no segment has cornered the market on beauty...good design should be available from economy car to luxury car. Sonata, La Crosse, Optima are not cars that will set engineering geeks hearts a flutter...their looks, I'd argue, in addition to perceived value has made these cars household names when just a generation before, they were practically invisible to the buying public. Their designs have hit a nerve with the public and I believe hitting this elusive nerve shouldn't be all that elusive for professional car designers. There is something between designer over the top wackiness and bean counter designed by commitee blandness, that's where beauty lives. If these mainstream vehicles have managed to find the sweet spot in their segment, why shouldn't Acura's RLX find it with its targeted consumers?
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Ganplosive
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I suppose somewhat along those lines of thinking -
1. Yes, I agree completely that good looking cars do not detract from a purchasing decision and can only help bolster a purchase.
2. Beauty remains in the eyes of the beholder. What may be beautiful to mainstream buyers may not be to the wealthy affluent. If anything, they might be turned off by mainstream designs because they're so common. In some kinda twisted way, the fact that car looks nothing like a Hyundai is actually a good thing, as they have been more than ridiculed for their copying designs, which was where I was going with the Hyundai comment. People want the MB look, without the MB price. They pick up the Hyundai. But to a MB owner, the last thing they want their cars to get confused with, is a Hyundai. How many times have you seen a Genesis or a Equus down the road and thought damn, that's a Hyundai coming down the road. In most cases we thought damn, is that a MB? Oh wait nm Hyundai. You see where I'm coming from? How ironic is it for a S-class to pull up to the club and the valet tells him "Nice Hyundai Mr. Powers!". In the case of the RLX, sure it's somewhat bland but I really don't think it'll get confused with anything else, especially with the Acura signature grille. That in itself I feel, is a good thing.
3. In terms of availability of styling, I feel like it's almost always a one way game. Very rarely do you see high end luxury makers mimic what's popular in the mainstream, but you definitely see the mainstream mimic the high end. It's the difference of setting the new trend, vs creating that same look for cheaper. Older Hyundais looked like Jaguars, and then they looked like Honda's and now they look like MB. It's only recently that Hyundai is finally stepping out and doing their own thing on the Sonata's and velosters etc. I don't however, anticipate anyone to copy their designs. Until Hyundai's can consistently create a family look (which Acura has FINALLY got around to doing), they will remain a follower in terms of design.
Despite all that, however, I'm completely with you on hitting that nerve. Quite frankly, based off of pictures and what I've seen, I also don't feel like Acura has hit that nerve with this car. But until I see one in person and feel the road presence of one, there's still hope that it could end up pretty well, especially seeing it in that CG promotional video.
I think I speak for many others and myself that the 3g TL struck that nerve very, very well.
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TeHone
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After having returned from the New York show I will confirm the RLX (concept) is boring, sad attempt from a design team searching for a language that is proving elusive to put it mildly. The design could very well have come out of a Lexus design studio, and Lexus is never known to be adventurous in their design language. Really, its no better than the new Avalon, none! The most interest 'character line', the 'wave' below the A pillar looks like an after thought and the rear end we have seen before from various makers. Within a year (IMHO) it will be as anonymous as the current model and a 'back to the drawing board 'for Acura.
If you would like to see a stunning and resolved piece of design work, look no further than the Mazda Takeri concept also on view.
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dominik331
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For those that have a chance you should really see this vehicle in person. It is IMO a very nice elegant design, size is close to Lexus LS. Even the ugly wheels and champagne color look better in person. I was listening to people who gathered around it and all had very good things to say about it.
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