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A77
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
Actually I'm pulling a comparison with my own car, a puny 1.5L minivan that barely pulls 2900lbs gets a 17 MPG equivalent in city driving... Off course, average speed is 25 KpH (15 MpH), with 50% stopping on the route, 100% city driving.
So yeah, a bigger more powerful AWD sedan will get better mileage than my car in city driving.
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I seem to be doing better than you are, I believe we both have the same engine (L15A7) and I'm getting about 12.4km/l or the equavalent of about 28-29mpg city (20 min commute but additional 1/2-1 hr jams common). It's hard to imagine a big AWD 3L luxury car will get more mpg than that.
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Yes but you are in Malaysia and most of the L15s energy is being used to run the AC!
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Karl80
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If you are worried about MPG on a $60K+ car then this is probably not the car for you. Granted, psychologically a high MPG makes people feel better at the pump however, you will NEVER get your money back on savings..
30MPG on a 370HP AWD medium/large sedan sounds great to me.
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Gumbercules
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Karl80 wrote:
If you are worried about MPG on a $60K+ car then this is probably not the car for you. Granted, psychologically a high MPG makes people feel better at the pump however, you will NEVER get your money back on savings..
30MPG on a 370HP AWD medium/large sedan sounds great to me.
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Yea, I dont think people in this price range are worried about "saving money on mpg", but the achievement of this SH-AWD makes for great marketing.
And saving money through mpg is also not the only reason to want high mpg. For example, in downtown San Francisco, most buses are electric, and as a result when I am walking around downtown I dont get blasted in the face with foul smelling, carcinogenic fumes like I do when I walk around Manhattan. So for me, I want to support results like these, even if I'm not necessarily saving money on gas.
On top of that, if the AWD RLX is similarly priced to say an Infiniti M37x, then there is no "payback" to be made. Of course the RLX will probably be in between the m37x and m56x in price since it's between them in power so the comparison won't be as straight forward.
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Ganplosive
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I only get 30 mpg when going up and down the I-5 LOL, around city it's kinda brutal... 17 average and on good days, 22.
LA way mpg is hardly ever realized to epa standards..
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ams23
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Apparently Honda/Acura will be using Herman Cain in some 30/30/30 advertisements for 2013 Super Bowl, rather than Jay Leno or Jerry Seinfeld :D
On a side note, 30 mpg in real world driving (ie. with stop lights and stop signs) is quite good, especially considering that the combined horsepower is close to 400hp. The prior gen CR-V with a 4 cyl engine barely gets above 20 mpg in real world driving.
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FiSH-Chan
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A77 wrote:
Yes but you are in Malaysia and most of the L15s energy is being used to run the AC!
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Ya but unlike most people who want a rolling fridge and like to keep setting their A/C at 100%, I usually put my A/C cooling to 50% and just have the fan speed compensate it. Sometimes 70% cooling on REALLY hot days. I think this is what helped getting my 29mpg compared to Midi-Amp's. It's enough for me because I'm used to ineffective A/C cars on hot days. Tinting helps keep the heat out too and engine A/C dragless to.
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A77
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Helps if you keep off the "heaty" foods too.
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JMU R1
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Karl80 wrote:
If you are worried about MPG on a $60K+ car then this is probably not the car for you. Granted, psychologically a high MPG makes people feel better at the pump however, you will NEVER get your money back on savings..
30MPG on a 370HP AWD medium/large sedan sounds great to me.
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Good fuel economy is not just about saving money for a lot of people. If it was, people wouldn't be buying ten times as many Priuses as they are Insights.
For some people fuel economy is just another attribute for a car that they can feel good about or brag about to their friends. It's the same deal with horsepower. The vast majority of drivers wouldn't use the full 400 hp in a car like a 550 very often, but it's a reason for people to buy the car just the same.
I see plenty of people driving RX400h's and CT200h's in the DC metro area. I have to think there are more than enough people that would welcome a 370 hp luxo sedan with the fuel economy of the RLX.
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cksi1372
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notyper wrote:
Most relevant direct comparison to current vehicles is the Infiniti M Hybrid. 305 hp 3.5 liter V6, 360 hp combined output. 7spd auto, but doesn't use a torque converter. About 4150 lbs weight. Rated at 27/32/29 (and this is a modified older Nissan V6, not the newer VVEL stuff, so fuel economy is not a strong point for this engine). Starting price $55k, optioned up $65k.
The main difference here is AWD and the torque vectoring that the Acura offers. Given that the current generation RL weighs about 4100 lbs with SH-AWD, I would expect that even with some weight saving technology, this slightly larger dimensioned RLX, with the extra weight of batteries and such will come in slightly heavier. I think 4200 lbs would be good all things considered, but 4300 lbs wouldn't surprise me.
The Infiniti, with a traction limited launch, gets to 60 in the low 5's and the 1/4 in the mid-13's@102-103 mph. I would expect that the Acura, even if the power to weight ratio is slightly worse, will be a little quicker thanks to AWD. Might even hit high 4's 0-60 if they don't nanny it up on the launch. I'll bet the RL pricing will be similar too.
The question is, will it sell? The M-hybrid (and the M in general) certainly don't. Will the AWD be an attractive enough feature to bring people in to the showroom? Whether you like the looks or not, I don't see them as being different enough to be a draw on their own.
And will it be enough to sway people away from a surging Audi and the A6 3.0T? While the A6 is less powerful and not as fuel efficient (28 hwy though), it's still pretty quick, and people love the look and interior, and it can be had starting at $50k, although it gets expensive optioned up. Or the 5-series and E-class? The twin turbo V8's in these cars start right around $60k and even though it sucks that it matters, they do carry more brand cachet.
I guess it comes down to whether enough people care about fuel economy in this class of car. I can honestly say I just don't know if that'll be a selling point for buyers with the means to purchase these cars. I'm sure Acura is hoping it will. Maybe they'll surprise us and offer the RLX for under $50k (I doubt it though).
On a personal note, I do hope it looks better in person.
SC
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Spot on comments as usual Shawn.
What I don't get is why so many people get so excited about mpg's on a "luxury" car. Sorry, but most people "swimming" in this market (higher end luxury) could give to "#($&" about gas prices or mpg's. Yes, there are some outliers, but when it comes down to it they are buying style, cachet, performance, etc. Do you really think the 1%'ers care about $4.50/gallon gas prices for their $65k vehicle. Hell, most of them probably lease and know they aren't buying a Prius. Perhaps, if the mpg's were something significant, say 50mpg's, they might get some "press", but 30 mpg's, come on.
I spend a lot of time on BMW boards, since I own one, as well, and the only real area mpg's usually come up is in the 3 Series forums. Usually because it's a "kid" that's purchased a used 3'er, didn't worry about premium gas prices when they bought, and now asking if they can step down a grade to "save some money". Between that and maintenance, they shouldn't be in a lowly 3'er, anyway....stick with your Civic, until you can actually afford more than just the price of the car. Ha.
I think the RLX is nice and has some cool features, but doesn't do anything to pump up Acura sales for it significantly. I'm sure A's market research says people want good mpg's, but isn't this pretty much common sense..."Would good gas mileage, good performance, and unique features in a luxury car appeal to you?" Who the hell is going to answer "no" to that. It seems like Acura still doesn't get it. Oh well, the new RDX is really nice and should sell like hotcakes...it's on our short list.
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ipribadi
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I agree that the hybrid mpg is a small contributor to those considering cars in the price range.
Funny that Acura never highlights the SH-SHAWD as a hybrid system. I think they know "hybrid" doesn't belong in this class of cars or maybe mpg was never their top goal in implementing the system.
It all depends on the SH-SHAWD. If the system can turn a 4,000lb car into an agile, turn on rails kinda car then just that may sell the car.
This is something the previous RL lacked: to the common buyer doing a test drive it didn't handle and feel any more special than the competition.
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Gumbercules
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which is what I was trying to say before, that I agree most buyers in this segment won't care about saving money.
However, if the price point and performance is in-line with (or better than) competitors, than it shouldn't matter if its electric AWD or mechanical AWD if you are getting the same use out of the RLX as you would with a 5/E/M. The better mpg just becomes a bonus wether you like it or not.
BUt if the SH-AWD model is more expensive than the competition, then the RLX will have nothing to grab the attention of its target market.
I just hope the styling is not as boring for the production model and people can stop politicizing an awesome powertrain.
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Ganplosive
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Though the mpg's might not matter much to shoppers at this price point, I don't think it's fair to also say that rich or affluent people don't care about money at all. I'll even go a step further and say that maybe this isn't all about mpg's, but about less consumption and emissions and all that green stuff, or just simply about spending less time at the pump. Money might not be the issue, but time sure might be.
Nonetheless, what makes this RLX different than the rest of the pack I think is the fact that it goes HIGHER in power and performance should one opt for the esh-awd option. How many other cars out there give you more HP and better drive when opting for the hybrid option? This I feel is what's making this a unique proposition, rather than the MPG's.
Hybrids are never the top of the line offering from an automaker. Acura intends to do so with the RLX and the freaking NSX. This might turn some heads.
As an aside, I hope a lot of people opt for the esh-awd RLX even if all it does is provide real world data for Honda to test and study for the NSX. Come 2013 when family members are looking for a new cruiser, I would definitely be recommending a look at the RLX.
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Ganplosive
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I'll also add, with cars like the Fiskers and Tesla rolling around upwards of 60-70k, and Volts commanding up to 32-35k a pop, hybrids aren't necessarily all about the money. It's about the haves vs the have-nots.
Some purely buy it for show factor. The other day I was in Santa Monica and a Corvette pulled up next to me. Launching on a green, the people in the coffee shop were heard yelling after the guy in the corvette sarcastically saying how cool he is killing the earth, why don't you go buy 2 prius's or some s**t. Now I don't know how serious they were, but hybrid tech perception certainly is changing. Even in show-stopping Los Angeles
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FiSH-Chan
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A77 wrote:
Helps if you keep off the "heaty" foods too.
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"Heaty" foods only give you a headache, not make you sweat.
Back to topic, if the car can roll around on the electric motors up to very quick speeds like Jeff mentioned in the Japan Earth Dreams preview without the engine kick in I'm sure that is one selling point (assuming people take it to test drive)
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notyper
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Ahh yes, Santa Monica. Land of rent control, nirvana for bums and filled with residents completely divorced from reality. I dated a girl for a year or so that lived in SM. Spent a lot of time walking or trying to find street parking. Wish someone would have had the balls to say some Eco bullshit to me while driving. Fucking Eco-pussies.
SC
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CarPhreakD
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cksi1372 wrote:
notyper wrote:
Most relevant direct comparison to current vehicles is the Infiniti M Hybrid. 305 hp 3.5 liter V6, 360 hp combined output. 7spd auto, but doesn't use a torque converter. About 4150 lbs weight. Rated at 27/32/29 (and this is a modified older Nissan V6, not the newer VVEL stuff, so fuel economy is not a strong point for this engine). Starting price $55k, optioned up $65k.
The main difference here is AWD and the torque vectoring that the Acura offers. Given that the current generation RL weighs about 4100 lbs with SH-AWD, I would expect that even with some weight saving technology, this slightly larger dimensioned RLX, with the extra weight of batteries and such will come in slightly heavier. I think 4200 lbs would be good all things considered, but 4300 lbs wouldn't surprise me.
The Infiniti, with a traction limited launch, gets to 60 in the low 5's and the 1/4 in the mid-13's@102-103 mph. I would expect that the Acura, even if the power to weight ratio is slightly worse, will be a little quicker thanks to AWD. Might even hit high 4's 0-60 if they don't nanny it up on the launch. I'll bet the RL pricing will be similar too.
The question is, will it sell? The M-hybrid (and the M in general) certainly don't. Will the AWD be an attractive enough feature to bring people in to the showroom? Whether you like the looks or not, I don't see them as being different enough to be a draw on their own.
And will it be enough to sway people away from a surging Audi and the A6 3.0T? While the A6 is less powerful and not as fuel efficient (28 hwy though), it's still pretty quick, and people love the look and interior, and it can be had starting at $50k, although it gets expensive optioned up. Or the 5-series and E-class? The twin turbo V8's in these cars start right around $60k and even though it sucks that it matters, they do carry more brand cachet.
I guess it comes down to whether enough people care about fuel economy in this class of car. I can honestly say I just don't know if that'll be a selling point for buyers with the means to purchase these cars. I'm sure Acura is hoping it will. Maybe they'll surprise us and offer the RLX for under $50k (I doubt it though).
On a personal note, I do hope it looks better in person.
SC
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Spot on comments as usual Shawn.
What I don't get is why so many people get so excited about mpg's on a "luxury" car. Sorry, but most people "swimming" in this market (higher end luxury) could give to "#($&" about gas prices or mpg's. Yes, there are some outliers, but when it comes down to it they are buying style, cachet, performance, etc. Do you really think the 1%'ers care about $4.50/gallon gas prices for their $65k vehicle. Hell, most of them probably lease and know they aren't buying a Prius. Perhaps, if the mpg's were something significant, say 50mpg's, they might get some "press", but 30 mpg's, come on.
I spend a lot of time on BMW boards, since I own one, as well, and the only real area mpg's usually come up is in the 3 Series forums. Usually because it's a "kid" that's purchased a used 3'er, didn't worry about premium gas prices when they bought, and now asking if they can step down a grade to "save some money". Between that and maintenance, they shouldn't be in a lowly 3'er, anyway....stick with your Civic, until you can actually afford more than just the price of the car. Ha.
I think the RLX is nice and has some cool features, but doesn't do anything to pump up Acura sales for it significantly. I'm sure A's market research says people want good mpg's, but isn't this pretty much common sense..."Would good gas mileage, good performance, and unique features in a luxury car appeal to you?" Who the hell is going to answer "no" to that. It seems like Acura still doesn't get it. Oh well, the new RDX is really nice and should sell like hotcakes...it's on our short list.
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For those folks, you'd think the 370hp, world first in electric torque vectoring and huge level of technology would be a draw.
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NSXman
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notyper wrote:
Most relevant direct comparison to current vehicles is the Infiniti M Hybrid. 305 hp 3.5 liter V6, 360 hp combined output. 7spd auto, but doesn't use a torque converter. About 4150 lbs weight. Rated at 27/32/29 (and this is a modified older Nissan V6, not the newer VVEL stuff, so fuel economy is not a strong point for this engine). Starting price $55k, optioned up $65k.
The main difference here is AWD and the torque vectoring that the Acura offers. Given that the current generation RL weighs about 4100 lbs with SH-AWD, I would expect that even with some weight saving technology, this slightly larger dimensioned RLX, with the extra weight of batteries and such will come in slightly heavier. I think 4200 lbs would be good all things considered, but 4300 lbs wouldn't surprise me.
The Infiniti, with a traction limited launch, gets to 60 in the low 5's and the 1/4 in the mid-13's@102-103 mph. I would expect that the Acura, even if the power to weight ratio is slightly worse, will be a little quicker thanks to AWD. Might even hit high 4's 0-60 if they don't nanny it up on the launch. I'll bet the RL pricing will be similar too.
The question is, will it sell? The M-hybrid (and the M in general) certainly don't. Will the AWD be an attractive enough feature to bring people in to the showroom? Whether you like the looks or not, I don't see them as being different enough to be a draw on their own.
And will it be enough to sway people away from a surging Audi and the A6 3.0T? While the A6 is less powerful and not as fuel efficient (28 hwy though), it's still pretty quick, and people love the look and interior, and it can be had starting at $50k, although it gets expensive optioned up. Or the 5-series and E-class? The twin turbo V8's in these cars start right around $60k and even though it sucks that it matters, they do carry more brand cachet.
I guess it comes down to whether enough people care about fuel economy in this class of car. I can honestly say I just don't know if that'll be a selling point for buyers with the means to purchase these cars. I'm sure Acura is hoping it will. Maybe they'll surprise us and offer the RLX for under $50k (I doubt it though).
On a personal note, I do hope it looks better in person.
SC
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The decade long question is how to get Acura to gain Cachet in the luxury brand. In the realm of the TSX, TL, and MDX they clearly build very good and capable cars. The looks have proven to be just a bit polarizing, but the cars still vibrate on the practical and sensible wavelength. Though I never thought any RL from beginning to now has been anything to be proud about, has it ever truly been a bad car? People in the luxury realm just don't seem to want sensible (I speak in general terms here as I know there are some sensible wealthy people).
People who buy MB and BMW vehicles sometimes buy a whole lot less of a car to get the brand. I'm looking at you BMW 323 and 318, BMW 525, and MB C230s. You couldn't have paid me to get into a C230 coupe up next to an RSX-S or even an Accord coupe. Something about the brand makes people feel more special, and to that end my point with luxury cars is you don't build what is sensible and what people need...you build what they want no matter how silly it is. To me Acura has only built a few bad cars (and re-badged a really bad one in the Trooper, but that is another story), but the sensible and practical Honda always seems to shine though. Why would anyone purchase a MB, BMW, or any other carline that offers little to nothing that the equivalent TL or TSX offers and comes with all the headaches associated with luxury lines (high maintenance, high fuel prices, high insurance, lower resale, etc)? Because they are purchasing a car that appeals to their sense to what to show off. Is that bad and selfish? Perhaps it is and perhaps it isn't...but it is what it is and too much of Honda's sensible and this is a smart buy come through in the Acura line to give them panache or cachet. An executive of my company drives an AMG MB with a supercharged V8. He clamors on and on about how he wishes the car was electric and how much fuel he uses, yet he never changes...because he likes the Benz. He's not going to come to work in a Volt or even an M Hybrid...he wants the Silver Star. Another person I know drove a Hyundai Genesis V8 sedan...and he traded up to a twin turbo V12 MB. He had the money for the MB when we got the Genesis...but wasn't satisfied with the Hyundai brand.
Personally I think it is too late for Acura to ever go toe to toe with the Germans and perhaps not even Cadillac. Cadillac is certainly going after BMW and to a lesser extent MB. I think Acura has to pave a new path in higher tier vehicles, and I just don't know what it is going to be nor can I tell who's business they are after. Perhaps if they stay in the $30,000 - $50,000 range they can still go after the $100k - $150k/year people with the practical streaks, but practicality is out the door in the $70,000 range I believe.
To that end I believe marketing the NSX as a fuel efficient sports car will appeal to no one, even as good as it is likely to be.
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ipribadi
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| FiSH-Chan wrote: ... I usually put my A/C cooling to 50% and just have the fan speed compensate it. Sometimes 70% cooling on REALLY hot days. I think this is what helped getting my 29mpg compared to Midi-Amp's. |
The compressor is either on or off.
Dialing in less cool or more heat kicks in the heater which adds engine heat to the air stream to raise the AC vent air temperature. Even the auto climate control in my Accord does this if it needs to go beyond the lowest fan setting.
There is a temp sensor switch near the AC evaporator to shut the compressor off briefly after it reaches near freeze point, this is to avoid ice build up.
But other than 100% cool, you're actually running both AC and heater at the same time which seems like wasting energy to me.
Sorry off topic .. okay back to RLX vs GS/E/5
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Ganplosive
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NSXman - I don't believe that. Brand Cachet takes time to build, and years, decades, to nurture. It's a never ending war with no clear victory, but only defeat when the automaker goes bankrupt.
Honestly, Acura sold very well back in the day, but I don't think they were selling as luxury items. They were selling what seems to me a product that gave exceptional value, and great features and at the time luxury styling for less money. The formula was great and it put people on notice, but in all reality they didn't really start building the ACURA brand cachet as a LUXURY automaker until the MDX / 3g TL came out. They came late to brand building basically, as many of their products were KNOWN rebadges of Honda's from other parts of the world. Exclusivity only started with these models, and Acura actually started feeling like a brand and not a dealer network that's selling different cars under one roof.
Fast forward to pre-2008 they wanted to invest the resources but reconsidered (chickened out). One good thing that did come from that aspiration is what we see now as the family look. Slowly but surely though, Acura does seem to be building their brand cachet, and I just think at this point action would speak much louder than words. Let them work.
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FiSH-Chan
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ipribadi wrote:
Wait ... as far as I know, dialing your red and blue thermostat to 50% or 70% doesn't "reduce" the AC compressor load in anyway.
The compressor is either on or off.
Dialing in less cool or more heat kicks in the heater which adds engine heat to the air stream to raise the AC vent air temperature. Even the auto climate control in my Accord does this if it needs to go beyond the lowest fan setting. |
You are correct the compressor is either on or off and the dial increases or decreasess that frequency. When the compressor is off, there is no drag on the engine, that is good enough. If the compressor is off often enough there is less drag on the engine for that time too.
And in this part of the world, there is no need for a heater. Anyway, even if there is a heater, I would still put it at 50% COOLING, not 50% of the dial switch in between heater and A/C. Maybe it is different for your model, but this definitely works well for me and I have been doing this for more than a year without any problems.
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DrWhiner
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Gumbercules wrote:
ipribadi wrote:
30mpg city is impressive, but I expected better than 30mpg for the hwy portion.
After all a 7AT DSG with 3.5l V6 EDT + hybrid system should do better than that.
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I agree with this, I was hoping for better HWY MPG as well, but then again it is AWD (which of course we still need to see how it performes compared to mechanical AWD).
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Add these to the mix:
BMW ActiveHybrid 7 4.4 V8 A8 17/24/20 mpg MSRP: $97,000 (455 hp)
Mercedes S400 Hybrid 3.5 V6 A7 19/25/21 mpg $91,850 (295 hp)
I don't think the hybrid system could do much during the EPA hwy test cycle.
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DrWhiner
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Lucien wrote:
The new ES 300h gets 40 mpg combined. Not nearly as much hp or AWD but still that difference is huge despite not being in the same class. But both cars are pretty boring so not sure if it matters...
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ES 300h:
- 2.5-liter Atkinson cycle four cylinder;
- good for 200 horsepower only.
C'mon, are u just kidding?
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ipribadi
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
You are correct the compressor is either on or off and the dial increases or decreasess that frequency. When the compressor is off, there is no drag on the engine, that is good enough. If the compressor is off often enough there is less drag on the engine for that time too. |
The dial's only function is to add amounts of heated air to the mix by throttling the flow of engine coolant to the heating element.
If you can detect no warm/hot air when the dial is 100% hot, then your car doesn't even have a heater system and thus the dial is 100% useless.
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spyder5786
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Agree that that's not a fair comparison. I still expect better than 30mpg highway with DI and a 7 speed DSG. Just make the 7th gear darn close to idle. It actually really annoys me that Honda refuses to make a very tall 6th gear on their manuals. I should not be above 3k rpms in 6th gear @ 70.
DrWhiner wrote:
Lucien wrote:
The new ES 300h gets 40 mpg combined. Not nearly as much hp or AWD but still that difference is huge despite not being in the same class. But both cars are pretty boring so not sure if it matters...
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ES 300h:
- 2.5-liter Atkinson cycle four cylinder;
- good for 200 horsepower only.
C'mon, are u just kidding?
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cksi1372
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CarPhreakD wrote:
cksi1372 wrote:
notyper wrote:
Most relevant direct comparison to current vehicles is the Infiniti M Hybrid. 305 hp 3.5 liter V6, 360 hp combined output. 7spd auto, but doesn't use a torque converter. About 4150 lbs weight. Rated at 27/32/29 (and this is a modified older Nissan V6, not the newer VVEL stuff, so fuel economy is not a strong point for this engine). Starting price $55k, optioned up $65k.
The main difference here is AWD and the torque vectoring that the Acura offers. Given that the current generation RL weighs about 4100 lbs with SH-AWD, I would expect that even with some weight saving technology, this slightly larger dimensioned RLX, with the extra weight of batteries and such will come in slightly heavier. I think 4200 lbs would be good all things considered, but 4300 lbs wouldn't surprise me.
The Infiniti, with a traction limited launch, gets to 60 in the low 5's and the 1/4 in the mid-13's@102-103 mph. I would expect that the Acura, even if the power to weight ratio is slightly worse, will be a little quicker thanks to AWD. Might even hit high 4's 0-60 if they don't nanny it up on the launch. I'll bet the RL pricing will be similar too.
The question is, will it sell? The M-hybrid (and the M in general) certainly don't. Will the AWD be an attractive enough feature to bring people in to the showroom? Whether you like the looks or not, I don't see them as being different enough to be a draw on their own.
And will it be enough to sway people away from a surging Audi and the A6 3.0T? While the A6 is less powerful and not as fuel efficient (28 hwy though), it's still pretty quick, and people love the look and interior, and it can be had starting at $50k, although it gets expensive optioned up. Or the 5-series and E-class? The twin turbo V8's in these cars start right around $60k and even though it sucks that it matters, they do carry more brand cachet.
I guess it comes down to whether enough people care about fuel economy in this class of car. I can honestly say I just don't know if that'll be a selling point for buyers with the means to purchase these cars. I'm sure Acura is hoping it will. Maybe they'll surprise us and offer the RLX for under $50k (I doubt it though).
On a personal note, I do hope it looks better in person.
SC
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Spot on comments as usual Shawn.
What I don't get is why so many people get so excited about mpg's on a "luxury" car. Sorry, but most people "swimming" in this market (higher end luxury) could give to "#($&" about gas prices or mpg's. Yes, there are some outliers, but when it comes down to it they are buying style, cachet, performance, etc. Do you really think the 1%'ers care about $4.50/gallon gas prices for their $65k vehicle. Hell, most of them probably lease and know they aren't buying a Prius. Perhaps, if the mpg's were something significant, say 50mpg's, they might get some "press", but 30 mpg's, come on.
I spend a lot of time on BMW boards, since I own one, as well, and the only real area mpg's usually come up is in the 3 Series forums. Usually because it's a "kid" that's purchased a used 3'er, didn't worry about premium gas prices when they bought, and now asking if they can step down a grade to "save some money". Between that and maintenance, they shouldn't be in a lowly 3'er, anyway....stick with your Civic, until you can actually afford more than just the price of the car. Ha.
I think the RLX is nice and has some cool features, but doesn't do anything to pump up Acura sales for it significantly. I'm sure A's market research says people want good mpg's, but isn't this pretty much common sense..."Would good gas mileage, good performance, and unique features in a luxury car appeal to you?" Who the hell is going to answer "no" to that. It seems like Acura still doesn't get it. Oh well, the new RDX is really nice and should sell like hotcakes...it's on our short list.
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For those folks, you'd think the 370hp, world first in electric torque vectoring and huge level of technology would be a draw.
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Why? You can get that hp in many other cars in the segment, very few could give two who who's about electric torque vectoring (this could change if Acura markets correctly, but I won't hold my breath with anything Acura marketing does...they intro'd this new vehicle in friggin beige), and again, others have a huge level of tech, as well.
I just don't see this vehicle having any chance at pulling people away from other brands, except maybe those that were looking at a Genesis or Equus type car and aren't married to the German's.
Oh, and did I mention they intro'd this thing in probably the worst color ever. Acura Marketing: Next time consult Neal before doing a car intro. That aside, I do think the car is nice looking inside and out.
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iutodd
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cksi1372 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
cksi1372 wrote:
Spot on comments as usual Shawn.
What I don't get is why so many people get so excited about mpg's on a "luxury" car. Sorry, but most people "swimming" in this market (higher end luxury) could give to "#($&" about gas prices or mpg's. Yes, there are some outliers, but when it comes down to it they are buying style, cachet, performance, etc. Do you really think the 1%'ers care about $4.50/gallon gas prices for their $65k vehicle. Hell, most of them probably lease and know they aren't buying a Prius. Perhaps, if the mpg's were something significant, say 50mpg's, they might get some "press", but 30 mpg's, come on.
I spend a lot of time on BMW boards, since I own one, as well, and the only real area mpg's usually come up is in the 3 Series forums. Usually because it's a "kid" that's purchased a used 3'er, didn't worry about premium gas prices when they bought, and now asking if they can step down a grade to "save some money". Between that and maintenance, they shouldn't be in a lowly 3'er, anyway....stick with your Civic, until you can actually afford more than just the price of the car. Ha.
I think the RLX is nice and has some cool features, but doesn't do anything to pump up Acura sales for it significantly. I'm sure A's market research says people want good mpg's, but isn't this pretty much common sense..."Would good gas mileage, good performance, and unique features in a luxury car appeal to you?" Who the hell is going to answer "no" to that. It seems like Acura still doesn't get it. Oh well, the new RDX is really nice and should sell like hotcakes...it's on our short list.
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For those folks, you'd think the 370hp, world first in electric torque vectoring and huge level of technology would be a draw.
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Why? You can get that hp in many other cars in the segment, very few could give two who who's about electric torque vectoring (this could change if Acura markets correctly, but I won't hold my breath with anything Acura marketing does...they intro'd this new vehicle in friggin beige), and again, others have a huge level of tech, as well.
I just don't see this vehicle having any chance at pulling people away from other brands, except maybe those that were looking at a Genesis or Equus type car and aren't married to the German's.
Oh, and did I mention they intro'd this thing in probably the worst color ever. Acura Marketing: Next time consult Neal before doing a car intro. That aside, I do think the car is nice looking inside and out.
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I love how quickly people dismiss what Acura has done. OH, pssh, 30 mpg combined with 370 hp and AWD? Whatever. You can get an Audi that offers 28 mpg HIGHWAY for a bit more money. Such a double standard it's ridiculous..."mpgs for other cars are a selling point, but the mpg numbers for Acura don't matter."
The reaction on other car websites/blogs has been similarly dismissive. I just don't understand how this isn't impressive and how it won't help sales. Other automakers talk about power train technology and fuel efficiency all the time. And this power train is among the most advanced in the world. How is that not a selling point?
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CarPhreakD
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cksi1372 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
cksi1372 wrote:
notyper wrote:
Most relevant direct comparison to current vehicles is the Infiniti M Hybrid. 305 hp 3.5 liter V6, 360 hp combined output. 7spd auto, but doesn't use a torque converter. About 4150 lbs weight. Rated at 27/32/29 (and this is a modified older Nissan V6, not the newer VVEL stuff, so fuel economy is not a strong point for this engine). Starting price $55k, optioned up $65k.
The main difference here is AWD and the torque vectoring that the Acura offers. Given that the current generation RL weighs about 4100 lbs with SH-AWD, I would expect that even with some weight saving technology, this slightly larger dimensioned RLX, with the extra weight of batteries and such will come in slightly heavier. I think 4200 lbs would be good all things considered, but 4300 lbs wouldn't surprise me.
The Infiniti, with a traction limited launch, gets to 60 in the low 5's and the 1/4 in the mid-13's@102-103 mph. I would expect that the Acura, even if the power to weight ratio is slightly worse, will be a little quicker thanks to AWD. Might even hit high 4's 0-60 if they don't nanny it up on the launch. I'll bet the RL pricing will be similar too.
The question is, will it sell? The M-hybrid (and the M in general) certainly don't. Will the AWD be an attractive enough feature to bring people in to the showroom? Whether you like the looks or not, I don't see them as being different enough to be a draw on their own.
And will it be enough to sway people away from a surging Audi and the A6 3.0T? While the A6 is less powerful and not as fuel efficient (28 hwy though), it's still pretty quick, and people love the look and interior, and it can be had starting at $50k, although it gets expensive optioned up. Or the 5-series and E-class? The twin turbo V8's in these cars start right around $60k and even though it sucks that it matters, they do carry more brand cachet.
I guess it comes down to whether enough people care about fuel economy in this class of car. I can honestly say I just don't know if that'll be a selling point for buyers with the means to purchase these cars. I'm sure Acura is hoping it will. Maybe they'll surprise us and offer the RLX for under $50k (I doubt it though).
On a personal note, I do hope it looks better in person.
SC
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Spot on comments as usual Shawn.
What I don't get is why so many people get so excited about mpg's on a "luxury" car. Sorry, but most people "swimming" in this market (higher end luxury) could give to "#($&" about gas prices or mpg's. Yes, there are some outliers, but when it comes down to it they are buying style, cachet, performance, etc. Do you really think the 1%'ers care about $4.50/gallon gas prices for their $65k vehicle. Hell, most of them probably lease and know they aren't buying a Prius. Perhaps, if the mpg's were something significant, say 50mpg's, they might get some "press", but 30 mpg's, come on.
I spend a lot of time on BMW boards, since I own one, as well, and the only real area mpg's usually come up is in the 3 Series forums. Usually because it's a "kid" that's purchased a used 3'er, didn't worry about premium gas prices when they bought, and now asking if they can step down a grade to "save some money". Between that and maintenance, they shouldn't be in a lowly 3'er, anyway....stick with your Civic, until you can actually afford more than just the price of the car. Ha.
I think the RLX is nice and has some cool features, but doesn't do anything to pump up Acura sales for it significantly. I'm sure A's market research says people want good mpg's, but isn't this pretty much common sense..."Would good gas mileage, good performance, and unique features in a luxury car appeal to you?" Who the hell is going to answer "no" to that. It seems like Acura still doesn't get it. Oh well, the new RDX is really nice and should sell like hotcakes...it's on our short list.
|
For those folks, you'd think the 370hp, world first in electric torque vectoring and huge level of technology would be a draw.
|
Why? You can get that hp in many other cars in the segment, very few could give two who who's about electric torque vectoring (this could change if Acura markets correctly, but I won't hold my breath with anything Acura marketing does...they intro'd this new vehicle in friggin beige), and again, others have a huge level of tech, as well.
I just don't see this vehicle having any chance at pulling people away from other brands, except maybe those that were looking at a Genesis or Equus type car and aren't married to the German's.
Oh, and did I mention they intro'd this thing in probably the worst color ever. Acura Marketing: Next time consult Neal before doing a car intro. That aside, I do think the car is nice looking inside and out.
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Really? Have you been paying attention to the other cars in this segment?
Audi A6: 310 hp 3.0t, 211hp 2.0t
Mercedes E-class: V6 302hp, V8 402hp
Lexus GS: V6 306hp, hybrid 338hp
Infiniti M37: V6 330hp, hybrid 360hp
BMW 5-series: I4 240hp, I6 300hp, V8 400hp (twin turbo)
In the context of all these vehicles, I would say the RLX hybrid's power output is not only the most powerful out of all the current hybrids, but is enough to actually rival the V8s.
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VTECRacer
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iutodd wrote:
cksi1372 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
cksi1372 wrote:
Spot on comments as usual Shawn.
What I don't get is why so many people get so excited about mpg's on a "luxury" car. Sorry, but most people "swimming" in this market (higher end luxury) could give to "#($&" about gas prices or mpg's. Yes, there are some outliers, but when it comes down to it they are buying style, cachet, performance, etc. Do you really think the 1%'ers care about $4.50/gallon gas prices for their $65k vehicle. Hell, most of them probably lease and know they aren't buying a Prius. Perhaps, if the mpg's were something significant, say 50mpg's, they might get some "press", but 30 mpg's, come on.
I spend a lot of time on BMW boards, since I own one, as well, and the only real area mpg's usually come up is in the 3 Series forums. Usually because it's a "kid" that's purchased a used 3'er, didn't worry about premium gas prices when they bought, and now asking if they can step down a grade to "save some money". Between that and maintenance, they shouldn't be in a lowly 3'er, anyway....stick with your Civic, until you can actually afford more than just the price of the car. Ha.
I think the RLX is nice and has some cool features, but doesn't do anything to pump up Acura sales for it significantly. I'm sure A's market research says people want good mpg's, but isn't this pretty much common sense..."Would good gas mileage, good performance, and unique features in a luxury car appeal to you?" Who the hell is going to answer "no" to that. It seems like Acura still doesn't get it. Oh well, the new RDX is really nice and should sell like hotcakes...it's on our short list.
|
For those folks, you'd think the 370hp, world first in electric torque vectoring and huge level of technology would be a draw.
|
Why? You can get that hp in many other cars in the segment, very few could give two who who's about electric torque vectoring (this could change if Acura markets correctly, but I won't hold my breath with anything Acura marketing does...they intro'd this new vehicle in friggin beige), and again, others have a huge level of tech, as well.
I just don't see this vehicle having any chance at pulling people away from other brands, except maybe those that were looking at a Genesis or Equus type car and aren't married to the German's.
Oh, and did I mention they intro'd this thing in probably the worst color ever. Acura Marketing: Next time consult Neal before doing a car intro. That aside, I do think the car is nice looking inside and out.
|
I love how quickly people dismiss what Acura has done. OH, pssh, 30 mpg combined with 370 hp and AWD? Whatever. You can get an Audi that offers 28 mpg HIGHWAY for a bit more money. Such a double standard it's ridiculous..."mpgs for other cars are a selling point, but the mpg numbers for Acura don't matter."
The reaction on other car websites/blogs has been similarly dismissive. I just don't understand how this isn't impressive and how it won't help sales. Other automakers talk about power train technology and fuel efficiency all the time. And this power train is among the most advanced in the world. How is that not a selling point?
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I wouldn't worry about it. These are the same people that would find something to complain about no matter what Acura does. If the RLX was designed as a Panamera Turbo competitor, they would still have something to complain about.
I don't know if you've noticed or not, but the regular TOV resident complainer(s) have been fairly mum about the RLX. And the ones that have tried to stir the pot, well, they've just been ignored.
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Ganplosive
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Yep, as long as Acura or Honda isn't class leading in something, they'll jump right one it. When they ARE class leading in something, they'll bring something up from another class and bite on it.
OH WTF the old insights get 70 mpg combined and that thing was 13 years old. Fail ACURA, no progress at all. Advance? more like BACKWARDS.
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FiSH-Chan
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ipribadi wrote:
If you can detect no warm/hot air when the dial is 100% hot, then your car doesn't even have a heater system and thus the dial is 100% useless.
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Like I said, we could have very different systems. I put it at 0% and the fan just blows air that is whatever temperature the interior is, like when I have the A/C button off. I'm very sure my dial turns on and off the A/C frequency. e.g. by turning the dial to 100% cooling, the A/C compressor kicks in for very, very long time ( let say for example every 3 minutes it turns off and when 10 seconds later it turns on again ), and that cools down the air for that longer making it very cold. If I put it 50%, then I can hear the A/c compressosr cycle more often ( for example, every 10 seconds it shuts off and then 10 seconds goes on again). Of course the time varies but that is just exanmple.
My point is if the A/C turns on for long enough it will drag the engine for how long it goes, and over time it makes the engine less efficient than when I have the A/C drag less. That is how it works for me. I assume it would be for same with Midi_Amp since we are in the same region and the car is built for the same climate.
Sorry to go off topic
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