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  TOV News > Acura RLX Concept Makes World Debut in New York > > Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison

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Gumbercules
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30/30/30! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 14:16
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30 overall is excellent (about what the "40mpg" elantra and cruze get in real world) but as a marketing tool for the brand it will be lost in the HWY MPG adverts.

I can't wait for the comparos to see what its performance is like and maybe this will preview what the NSX will drive like as well.
Ganplosive
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Re: 30/30/30! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 14:23
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I think the most impressive part is 30 CITY. For a 4000 lbs car of this size? That's incredible
shingles
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Re: 30/30/30! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 14:24
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Thing is, this won't be advertised against the Cruze or Elantra...
DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: 30/30/30! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 14:28
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shingles wrote:
Thing is, this won't be advertised against the Cruze or Elantra...


Let them have a few minutes to celebrate. Reality will be here soon.
RSX
Profile for RSX
Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 14:33
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Gumbercules wrote:
30 overall is excellent (about what the "40mpg" elantra and cruze get in real world) but as a marketing tool for the brand it will be lost in the HWY MPG adverts.

I can't wait for the comparos to see what its performance is like and maybe this will preview what the NSX will drive like as well.



LS hybrid gets 19/23/20.
GS hybrid gets 29/34/31.

vtec_love
Profile for vtec_love
Re: 30/30/30! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 14:34
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Wow better city & combined mpg than the 2.0 ilx? How did that happen??
Ganplosive
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Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 14:47
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GS hybrid weight - 4,190 lb so it's fairly competitive.
ipribadi
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Re: 30/30/30! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 15:27
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30mpg city is impressive, but I expected better than 30mpg for the hwy portion.
After all a 7AT DSG with 3.5l V6 EDT + hybrid system should do better than that.
Gumbercules
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Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 15:38
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RSX wrote:
Gumbercules wrote:
30 overall is excellent (about what the "40mpg" elantra and cruze get in real world) but as a marketing tool for the brand it will be lost in the HWY MPG adverts.

I can't wait for the comparos to see what its performance is like and maybe this will preview what the NSX will drive like as well.



LS hybrid gets 19/23/20.
GS hybrid gets 29/34/31.




GS hybrid mpg is great, but AFAIK it's not AWD and has less HP. I would gladly trade the 1 combined MPG for AWD traction (all else being equal).
Gumbercules
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Re: 30/30/30! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 15:44
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ipribadi wrote:
30mpg city is impressive, but I expected better than 30mpg for the hwy portion.
After all a 7AT DSG with 3.5l V6 EDT + hybrid system should do better than that.



I agree with this, I was hoping for better HWY MPG as well, but then again it is AWD (which of course we still need to see how it performes compared to mechanical AWD).
Lucien
Profile for Lucien
Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 15:45
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The new ES 300h gets 40 mpg combined. Not nearly as much hp or AWD but still that difference is huge despite not being in the same class. But both cars are pretty boring so not sure if it matters...
CR-V9
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Re: 30/30/30! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 16:58
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DCR wrote:
shingles wrote:
Thing is, this won't be advertised against the Cruze or Elantra...


Let them have a few minutes to celebrate. Reality will be here soon.


This one is very good. I'm impressed.
Subtle yet stingy, and stay being the highroad. Aura of superiority and not being arrogant, yet. Very impressive.
aznxthuggie
Profile for aznxthuggie
Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 17:20
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Lucien wrote:
The new ES 300h gets 40 mpg combined. Not nearly as much hp or AWD but still that difference is huge despite not being in the same class. But both cars are pretty boring so not sure if it matters...


A 40MPG Lexus ES will obliterate this segment, assuming refinement, interior room, and features were at least the same or improved. Even if it doesn't get 40mpg in real world driving, that's enough marketing to pull in buyers.

Lets hope Lexus doesn't do something similar w/ the next RX, otherwise the RDX, TL, and upcoming FWD RL will all be DOA.
Gumbercules
Profile for Gumbercules
Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 17:59
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Lucien wrote:
The new ES 300h gets 40 mpg combined. Not nearly as much hp or AWD but still that difference is huge despite not being in the same class. But both cars are pretty boring so not sure if it matters...


Yea, 40mpg, but much less power and no AWD. ES will probably be smaller too.

Still, 40mpg marketing may take away from RLX's SH-SH-AWD 30mpg marketing.

Fan Koni
Profile for Fan Koni
Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 17:59
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Ganplosive wrote:
GS hybrid weight - 4,190 lb so it's fairly competitive.


The 5 series hybrid brings along 4365 lb and it doens't deliver the promised FE.

Are there any statements on the weight of the eSH version floating around?

4000lb for the FWD version already does lower expectations.
Ganplosive
Profile for Ganplosive
Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 18:12
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FWD will be well below the 4000 mark. man do you guys even read press releases or just come and spew shit?

also keep in mind that Honda PROMISES 30/30/30 AT LEAST. During actual testing they're expecting better.
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 18:25
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I don't expect the FWD version to do much better than perhaps +3/+3 from the current RL.

As for the hybrid, I'm impressed... 370 HP is NOTHING to scoff at. What does this bode for the NSX? It's too bad that Honda decided to show the car in beige...

Question: Are the two wheel motors the only ones, or is there another electric motor in the DSG gearbox?
JIRZLEE
Profile for JIRZLEE
Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 18:57
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There is a motor in the DSG as well.
Midi_Amp
Profile for Midi_Amp
Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 21:10
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Gumbercules wrote:
RSX wrote:
Gumbercules wrote:
30 overall is excellent (about what the "40mpg" elantra and cruze get in real world) but as a marketing tool for the brand it will be lost in the HWY MPG adverts.

I can't wait for the comparos to see what its performance is like and maybe this will preview what the NSX will drive like as well.



LS hybrid gets 19/23/20.
GS hybrid gets 29/34/31.




GS hybrid mpg is great, but AFAIK it's not AWD and has less HP. I would gladly trade the 1 combined MPG for AWD traction (all else being equal).


I'll be happy if my Freed gets 17 MPG equivalent in city driving. 4000+ lbs, 370 bhp, AWD car that gets 30 MPG highway maybe is something to dismissed, and the comparison with GS 450h is valid... But... The GS using Atkinson Cycle engine + CVT. So I don't expect any driving enjoyment more so than a droning push from the GS. I don't know if Earth Dreams is Atkinson Cycle or not, but the 7 speed DCT should make the RLX drives proper.

So 30 MPG highway, okay, 7 speed box, okay, AWD, that's good, 370 bhp, hells yeah.
notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 21:21
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Most relevant direct comparison to current vehicles is the Infiniti M Hybrid. 305 hp 3.5 liter V6, 360 hp combined output. 7spd auto, but doesn't use a torque converter. About 4150 lbs weight. Rated at 27/32/29 (and this is a modified older Nissan V6, not the newer VVEL stuff, so fuel economy is not a strong point for this engine). Starting price $55k, optioned up $65k.

The main difference here is AWD and the torque vectoring that the Acura offers. Given that the current generation RL weighs about 4100 lbs with SH-AWD, I would expect that even with some weight saving technology, this slightly larger dimensioned RLX, with the extra weight of batteries and such will come in slightly heavier. I think 4200 lbs would be good all things considered, but 4300 lbs wouldn't surprise me.

The Infiniti, with a traction limited launch, gets to 60 in the low 5's and the 1/4 in the mid-13's@102-103 mph. I would expect that the Acura, even if the power to weight ratio is slightly worse, will be a little quicker thanks to AWD. Might even hit high 4's 0-60 if they don't nanny it up on the launch. I'll bet the RL pricing will be similar too.

The question is, will it sell? The M-hybrid (and the M in general) certainly don't. Will the AWD be an attractive enough feature to bring people in to the showroom? Whether you like the looks or not, I don't see them as being different enough to be a draw on their own.

And will it be enough to sway people away from a surging Audi and the A6 3.0T? While the A6 is less powerful and not as fuel efficient (28 hwy though), it's still pretty quick, and people love the look and interior, and it can be had starting at $50k, although it gets expensive optioned up. Or the 5-series and E-class? The twin turbo V8's in these cars start right around $60k and even though it sucks that it matters, they do carry more brand cachet.

I guess it comes down to whether enough people care about fuel economy in this class of car. I can honestly say I just don't know if that'll be a selling point for buyers with the means to purchase these cars. I'm sure Acura is hoping it will. Maybe they'll surprise us and offer the RLX for under $50k (I doubt it though).

On a personal note, I do hope it looks better in person.

SC
Gumbercules
Profile for Gumbercules
Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 21:25
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midi_amp - umm, you can't ignore city mpg

yea 30 mpg hwy is not special, but how many other AWD Mid or Large Luxury sedans even come close to 30 city.
ams23
Profile for ams23
Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 21:40
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Per Car and Driver: Acura promises a lightweight structure; it's unknown if the new hybrid AWD setup will be any heavier than the old system—our best estimate right now is that it will be a wash—but the front-drive RLX is said to come in well under 4000 pounds

So who knows exactly how heavy the Hybrid RLX will be, but at least the power-to-weight ratio will be significantly better on the Hybrid RLX vs. the front-drive RLX.

While I am impressed with the technology in the RLX, I (like some others here) am somewhat disappointed in the styling. The styling is too conservative to evoke much emotion. :(
HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 21:42
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ams23 wrote:
Per Car and Driver: Acura promises a lightweight structure; it's unknown if the new hybrid AWD setup will be any heavier than the old system—our best estimate right now is that it will be a wash—but the front-drive RLX is said to come in well under 4000 pounds

So who knows exactly how heavy the Hybrid RLX will be, but at least the power-to-weight ratio will be significantly better on the Hybrid RLX vs. the front-drive RLX.

While I am impressed with the technology in the RLX, I (like some others here) am somewhat disappointed in the styling. The styling is too conservative to evoke much emotion. :(


It will have MASSIVE amounts of low end torque compared to any Acura ever.......that is all that matters......
Midi_Amp
Profile for Midi_Amp
Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 21:51
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Gumbercules wrote:
midi_amp - umm, you can't ignore city mpg

yea 30 mpg hwy is not special, but how many other AWD Mid or Large Luxury sedans even come close to 30 city.


Actually I'm pulling a comparison with my own car, a puny 1.5L minivan that barely pulls 2900lbs gets a 17 MPG equivalent in city driving... Off course, average speed is 25 KpH (15 MpH), with 50% stopping on the route, 100% city driving.

So yeah, a bigger more powerful AWD sedan will get better mileage than my car in city driving.
ams23
Profile for ams23
Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 21:54
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Yes, good point. The new Sport Hybrid SH-AWD technology seems very promising, and potentially gives the Hybrid RLX a leg up over the GS450h, M Hybrid, etc in terms of handling and/or acceleration.
NSXman
Profile for NSXman
Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 22:01
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Lucien wrote:
The new ES 300h gets 40 mpg combined. Not nearly as much hp or AWD but still that difference is huge despite not being in the same class. But both cars are pretty boring so not sure if it matters...


Throw the upcoming Lincoln MKZ Hybrid in there too. Got to imagine it will get an over 40mpg rating. The last one was 41/36.
NSXman
Profile for NSXman
Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 22:02
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Gumbercules wrote:
RSX wrote:
Gumbercules wrote:
30 overall is excellent (about what the "40mpg" elantra and cruze get in real world) but as a marketing tool for the brand it will be lost in the HWY MPG adverts.

I can't wait for the comparos to see what its performance is like and maybe this will preview what the NSX will drive like as well.



LS hybrid gets 19/23/20.
GS hybrid gets 29/34/31.




GS hybrid mpg is great, but AFAIK it's not AWD and has less HP. I would gladly trade the 1 combined MPG for AWD traction (all else being equal).



RWD traction is a pretty cool novelty too.
FiSH-Chan
Profile for FiSH-Chan
Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-04-2012 22:43
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Midi_Amp wrote:
Actually I'm pulling a comparison with my own car, a puny 1.5L minivan that barely pulls 2900lbs gets a 17 MPG equivalent in city driving... Off course, average speed is 25 KpH (15 MpH), with 50% stopping on the route, 100% city driving.

So yeah, a bigger more powerful AWD sedan will get better mileage than my car in city driving.



I seem to be doing better than you are, I believe we both have the same engine (L15A7) and I'm getting about 12.4km/l or the equavalent of about 28-29mpg city (20 min commute but additional 1/2-1 hr jams common). It's hard to imagine a big AWD 3L luxury car will get more mpg than that.
Midi_Amp
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Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-05-2012 10:22
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
Actually I'm pulling a comparison with my own car, a puny 1.5L minivan that barely pulls 2900lbs gets a 17 MPG equivalent in city driving... Off course, average speed is 25 KpH (15 MpH), with 50% stopping on the route, 100% city driving.

So yeah, a bigger more powerful AWD sedan will get better mileage than my car in city driving.



I seem to be doing better than you are, I believe we both have the same engine (L15A7) and I'm getting about 12.4km/l or the equavalent of about 28-29mpg city (20 min commute but additional 1/2-1 hr jams common). It's hard to imagine a big AWD 3L luxury car will get more mpg than that.


My regular transit route is about 40 Km (to and back), however, it took me 45 minutes to my work place and 1+ hour back. During that time, I stopped about 50% on my way and my average speed noted by the GPS is only 25 KpH. The RLX should get at the very least similar to my mileage with the hybrid system, isn't stop and go condition is the main strength of a hybrid?
loveturtle
Profile for loveturtle
Re: 30/30/30! - Lexus LS/GS Hybrid comparison [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-05-2012 10:46
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I have no problem getting 30mpg why in my TL-S. however, around town I routinely average 22. It's not even that much stop and go..it's mainly just crowded and you have to accel fast and stop hard and dodge people who try to merge cars with you.
 
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