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TOV Forums > Today's Reading Links > > Re: Subaru BRZ (125hp/L from 7500 RPM? Doubt it)

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typesean
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Subaru BRZ sales brisk in Japan    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-28-2012 18:56
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Since the car debuted Feb. 3, Subaru parent Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. has sold 3,551 of the rear-wheel-drive BRZs, the company said Wednesday in a press release.

Read more: http://www.autoweek.com/article/20120328/CARNEWS/120329834#ixzz1qSHHhcy3
Jovian8
Profile for Jovian8
Re: Subaru BRZ sales brisk in Japan    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-28-2012 19:28
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That's great news. Apparently that is 4x the projected sales.
and the buying demographic is much younger than expected.
NealX
Profile for NealX
Re: Subaru BRZ sales brisk in Japan    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-28-2012 19:32
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Jovian8 wrote:
That's great news. Apparently that is 4x the projected sales.
and the buying demographic is much younger than expected.


"Gen-Y to the rescue!"
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-28-2012 20:26
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Neal wrote:
Jovian8 wrote:
That's great news. Apparently that is 4x the projected sales.
and the buying demographic is much younger than expected.


"Gen-Y to the rescue!"

Actually, for anyone following the JDM updates I regularly post on TOV, that is really nothing to feel too optimistic about.

I'll try to make it clear in 2 points:
1) Aiming at less than 500 units per month in the first year tells you they really don't expect this car to sell to begin with. That means after a year we are likely to be looking in the 100-200 bracket...; Be reassured we will never find out, because at that sales-level the BR-Z will be bellow the national top-30 which is the only model-specific info in Japan.
2) By JDM standards, achieving initial sales of 4x projections for such a slow selling car is about average, certainly not a flop, but certainly not "brisk".

By comparison, with the so widely TOV-criticized CR-Z (link):
1) Honda was planning to sell more than twice the BR-Z (about 1000/month)
2) On the first month they counted 10 times that figure at over 10k.

All that said, the BR-Z/FT86's real battleground is not in Japan (where there is barely a market for them), but in places like the US. Personally I didn't expect them to sell in any decent numbers in JP (though obviously I might have been wrong, seems I'm not), but that is as irrelevant as it comes when judging the true appeal of this happy couple.


Last edited by danielgr on 03-28-2012 20:29
Midi_Amp
Profile for Midi_Amp
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-28-2012 21:36
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danielgr wrote:
Neal wrote:
Jovian8 wrote:
That's great news. Apparently that is 4x the projected sales.
and the buying demographic is much younger than expected.


"Gen-Y to the rescue!"

Actually, for anyone following the JDM updates I regularly post on TOV, that is really nothing to feel too optimistic about.

I'll try to make it clear in 2 points:
1) Aiming at less than 500 units per month in the first year tells you they really don't expect this car to sell to begin with. That means after a year we are likely to be looking in the 100-200 bracket...; Be reassured we will never find out, because at that sales-level the BR-Z will be bellow the national top-30 which is the only model-specific info in Japan.
2) By JDM standards, achieving initial sales of 4x projections for such a slow selling car is about average, certainly not a flop, but certainly not "brisk".

By comparison, with the so widely TOV-criticized CR-Z (link):
1) Honda was planning to sell more than twice the BR-Z (about 1000/month)
2) On the first month they counted 10 times that figure at over 10k.

All that said, the BR-Z/FT86's real battleground is not in Japan (where there is barely a market for them), but in places like the US. Personally I didn't expect them to sell in any decent numbers in JP (though obviously I might have been wrong, seems I'm not), but that is as irrelevant as it comes when judging the true appeal of this happy couple.


Per the usual euphoria buyer of new products, sales will taper off eventually and like you said Daniel, the BRZ/GT86 battle is outside of Japan. I'm expecting the car as a runaway success in countries like US and Europe where average household have 2 or more cars as I see this car mostly as a second/weekend car.

Call me old, but the allure of a sports car even in my early 30s doesn't appeal that much anymore. Between double job, family and higher degree pursuit, whatever left of my time is just too little to spare on anything outside the comfort of my home.

The BRZ/FR-S/GT86 will sell fine, but between the trio or the CR-Z, I will choose the latter. The only way (in my country at least) I can enjoy a sports car is on the highway which is usually jammed at any given time except after 11PM, then you have the highway patrol. So a burst of acceleration and some spirited over taking is just what I need, in the mean time I can engage the eco mode and enjoy the traffic jam with minimal hit on fuel economy (while listening to my Barry Manilow collection).
superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-28-2012 21:45
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A clear win for all enthusiasts! Honda, are you watching?
HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-28-2012 22:31
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Midi_Amp wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Neal wrote:
Jovian8 wrote:
That's great news. Apparently that is 4x the projected sales.
and the buying demographic is much younger than expected.


"Gen-Y to the rescue!"

Actually, for anyone following the JDM updates I regularly post on TOV, that is really nothing to feel too optimistic about.

I'll try to make it clear in 2 points:
1) Aiming at less than 500 units per month in the first year tells you they really don't expect this car to sell to begin with. That means after a year we are likely to be looking in the 100-200 bracket...; Be reassured we will never find out, because at that sales-level the BR-Z will be bellow the national top-30 which is the only model-specific info in Japan.
2) By JDM standards, achieving initial sales of 4x projections for such a slow selling car is about average, certainly not a flop, but certainly not "brisk".

By comparison, with the so widely TOV-criticized CR-Z (link):
1) Honda was planning to sell more than twice the BR-Z (about 1000/month)
2) On the first month they counted 10 times that figure at over 10k.

All that said, the BR-Z/FT86's real battleground is not in Japan (where there is barely a market for them), but in places like the US. Personally I didn't expect them to sell in any decent numbers in JP (though obviously I might have been wrong, seems I'm not), but that is as irrelevant as it comes when judging the true appeal of this happy couple.


Per the usual euphoria buyer of new products, sales will taper off eventually and like you said Daniel, the BRZ/GT86 battle is outside of Japan. I'm expecting the car as a runaway success in countries like US and Europe where average household have 2 or more cars as I see this car mostly as a second/weekend car.

Call me old, but the allure of a sports car even in my early 30s doesn't appeal that much anymore. Between double job, family and higher degree pursuit, whatever left of my time is just too little to spare on anything outside the comfort of my home.

The BRZ/FR-S/GT86 will sell fine, but between the trio or the CR-Z, I will choose the latter. The only way (in my country at least) I can enjoy a sports car is on the highway which is usually jammed at any given time except after 11PM, then you have the highway patrol. So a burst of acceleration and some spirited over taking is just what I need, in the mean time I can engage the eco mode and enjoy the traffic jam with minimal hit on fuel economy (while listening to my Barry Manilow collection).


Dude........Barry Manilow in your early 30's......Shit, I am soon to be 48 and I grew up with the guy and I don't listen to him......Are you OK?......LOL! I jump in my Hybrid Civic and jam to Depech Mode, the Smiths or Aztec Camera..........The Screaming Blue Masihs...........Front 242, OZZY..........But Barry........WOW!
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-28-2012 22:41
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HONDA AFVM wrote:

Dude........Barry Manilow in your early 30's......Shit, I am soon to be 48 and I grew up with the guy and I don't listen to him......Are you OK?......LOL! I jump in my Hybrid Civic and jam to Depech Mode, the Smiths or Aztec Camera..........The Screaming Blue Masihs...........Front 242, OZZY..........But Barry........WOW!



You are soooo 80s.

I listen to Shostakovich. Check out his 2nd Symphony, aka "To October, for the 10th anniversary of the October Revolution".

Perhaps some Frank Zappa? "Dummy Up"?

...
Roll it on up!
Give me that!...
No no, the college degree is stuffed with absolutely nothing at all.
You get, you get nothing with your college-degree...
But that's what I want!
...


Seriously, in heavy traffic you don't want Depeche Mode.


DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-28-2012 22:54
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Radiohead, U2, Stone Temple Pilots, Pearl Jam, Beastie Boys, Dr. Dre and Snoop, Ice Cube, Simon and Garfunkel, Neil Young, The Music, anything 80's, The Cure, The Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, The Beatles, The Eagles, Pink Floyd, Deep Purple, Ray Charles...the list goes on...50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s.

I just hate Country and anything on current pop radio.
Powered by Honda
Profile for Powered by Honda
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-28-2012 23:06
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Only 6000 BRZ coming to the STATES in 2012! So get ready for dealer price gouges. Be prepared to pay top dollar.
DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-28-2012 23:35
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I can't be bothered to find the link, but I swear they planned 100k across the siblings.
NealX
Profile for NealX
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2012 00:27
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Powered by Honda wrote:
Only 6000 BRZ coming to the STATES in 2012! So get ready for dealer price gouges. Be prepared to pay top dollar.

I saw that somewhere, too. 6,000. But didn't see if that was for each or conbined. But yes, 6,000. Seems low.
WongKN
Profile for WongKN
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2012 01:00
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My favourite song for riding out a traffic jam, from 4 Non Blondes : "What's Up?".

And I shout at the top of my voice,
WHAT'S GOING ON ?!!!

Not the whole song but at least these two sentences ! SHIT, why am I sitting in a huge car park in the middle of what is supposed to be an exressway ? WHAT (THE HELL's) GOING ON ?!!!

LOL !
Fan Koni
Profile for Fan Koni
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2012 03:30
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DCR wrote:
I can't be bothered to find the link, but I swear they planned 100k across the siblings.


Yes that is the target combined, but I think that mark is planned with the help of added STI / performance and roadster versions.

A roadster STI BRZ sounds really like enough music for my ears - ;-)
HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2012 10:10
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TonyE wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:

Dude........Barry Manilow in your early 30's......Shit, I am soon to be 48 and I grew up with the guy and I don't listen to him......Are you OK?......LOL! I jump in my Hybrid Civic and jam to Depech Mode, the Smiths or Aztec Camera..........The Screaming Blue Masihs...........Front 242, OZZY..........But Barry........WOW!



You are soooo 80s.

I listen to Shostakovich. Check out his 2nd Symphony, aka "To October, for the 10th anniversary of the October Revolution".

Perhaps some Frank Zappa? "Dummy Up"?

...
Roll it on up!
Give me that!...
No no, the college degree is stuffed with absolutely nothing at all.
You get, you get nothing with your college-degree...
But that's what I want!
...


Seriously, in heavy traffic you don't want Depeche Mode.




Dude, when I am cruising down the Turnpike at 70 mph, and this song or others come on, I am like in a trance...time just moves........

http://vodpod.com/watch/48834-depeche-mode-its-no-good

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmWF1p68nIc

One of my favorite bands........I saw them in concert in the 80's at least 10 times..........

ANYWAY! I am coming to LA looks like mid August........Will you be around.......I want to meet up with you and any other TOV madness in the area........I will be spending one full day at Honda HQ, otherwise it's all play time.......Meeting up with some HS friends that live out there, but I have NO IDEA where to stay in the area, I looked at Hotels, but I don't know where they are in reference to where everyone lives, I need to do more research. I want to be in-between LAX and Torrance.......
Trip
Profile for Trip
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2012 12:56
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Midi_Amp wrote:

Call me old, but the allure of a sports car even in my early 30s doesn't appeal that much anymore. Between double job, family and higher degree pursuit, whatever left of my time is just too little to spare on anything outside the comfort of my home.



I know where you're coming from. I love driving my 89 Prelude but I'm lucky if I get to fire it up once or twice a month. The vehicles that click for me now are "all purpose" vehicles that I can drive day in and day out that meet my family obligations, satisfy my techno geek craving, and when I'm alone, give me some enjoyment to drive at 8/10ths. Not many fit the bill any more.

But, I am glad to see cars like the BRZ are available even though I can't buy them. Their popularity should help keep the enthusiast crowd happy. ANd if the cars are successful enough, eventually greedy marketing peeps and bean counters will say, "Hey . . . you think we can sell more of these if we offered it in 4 doors?" :-/
DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2012 13:18
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Trip wrote:
The vehicles that click for me now are "all purpose" vehicles that I can drive day in and day out that meet my family obligations, satisfy my techno geek craving, and when I'm alone, give me some enjoyment to drive at 8/10ths. Not many fit the bill any more.


Powered by Honda
Profile for Powered by Honda
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2012 14:39
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Neal wrote:
Powered by Honda wrote:
Only 6000 BRZ coming to the STATES in 2012! So get ready for dealer price gouges. Be prepared to pay top dollar.

I saw that somewhere, too. 6,000. But didn't see if that was for each or conbined. But yes, 6,000. Seems low.



They are having problems with one factory and make the same car for toyota in there. 6000 for all of usa is offical. Scion numbers could be higher or the same.
DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2012 15:11
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http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/281035/subaru_brz_sti_planned.html

Subaru has given the biggest hint yet that it is developing a hot STI version of its BRZ sports car and there's a roadster on the way too.


Talking to Auto Express at the launch of the new rear-wheel drive coupe, global marketing manager Atoshi Atake, said: "We have already had many requests from interested customers regarding a faster version. Let me say this - we will certainly satisfy our customers. We are already working on a faster version."


The new range-topping model is expected to take inspiration from the STI concept revealed at the 2011 Los Angeles Motor Show. Under the bonnet will be a more powerful version of the 197bhp 2.0-litre flat-four cylinder 'boxer' from the standard car.


It is likely to produce around 250bhp. "We can definitely develop the intake system," Atake said. "There is certainly room for improvement there." In addition, there is likely to be a freer-flowing exhaust and modifications to the engine's variable valve control system, along with an even higher rev limit of around 7,500rpm.


Subaru says that it will not turbocharge the engine as there is no space at the front of the engine bay for an intercooler. "Plus, we want to keep turbocharging separate. It is for models like the WRX STI," said Atake. "The same goes for four-wheel drive. We could not make the BRZ four-wheel drive even if we wanted to." He also said that supercharging had been dismissed because it would make the BRZ too heavy on fuel.


As well as more power, the BRZ STI is set to weigh even less than the 1,250kg standard car, thanks to racing bucket seats and potentially a carbonfibre roof and bonnet, which will further help to lower the car's centre of gravity. Other tweaks will include a dramatic bodykit, stiffened and lowered suspension, lighter but larger 18-inch alloy wheels and upgraded brakes.


When asked if it was possible to make a convertible version of the BRZ, Atake said: "Yes, that is certainly possible. We already have pillarless doors - you can imagine how removing the roof would make the car look."


Subaru and Toyota have a global sales target of 100,000 models per year for the BRZ, and its sister car, the GT 86. Both cars go on sale in the UK in June, but sales have already begun in Japan where Subaru has sold 3,551 models in the last two months - four times what it expected.

ru4real
Profile for ru4real
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2012 16:25
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I agree with you totally for once, nice taste in music;-)
NealX
Profile for NealX
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2012 16:33
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I was joking about the "Gen-Y to the rescue!" thing, BTW.
CR-V9
Profile for CR-V9
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2012 16:39
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Powered by Honda wrote:
Neal wrote:
Powered by Honda wrote:
Only 6000 BRZ coming to the STATES in 2012! So get ready for dealer price gouges. Be prepared to pay top dollar.

I saw that somewhere, too. 6,000. But didn't see if that was for each or conbined. But yes, 6,000. Seems low.



They are having problems with one factory and make the same car for toyota in there. 6000 for all of usa is offical. Scion numbers could be higher or the same.


So it would be 6,000 from Subaru and another 6,000 or more from Scion.
Toyota has recieved ~8,000/m pre-orders, which is 8 times est. I think that there is only one factory where both are produced. News said they expect to produce 100,000/year.
BRZ starts at 1990,000 Y ('86' 2010,000 Y) Which is about $24,000(82.5Y=$1). However the volume model, a 6MT GT goes for 2410,000 Y(241,0000 japanese way) which is about $29,000. Of course you can't just convert directly, though.

I don't think they'd make money on less than $24,000, specially because these are imported. I think they'd try to sell models or optioned one for $28,000ish, and wait a year or so then raise it to $29,000ish, I reckon.
This is a RWD. It needs separate a trans and a diff(LSD), and an extra drive shaft. It's got cost more than a FWD.
330R
Profile for 330R
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2012 20:15
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DCR wrote:
"We have already had many requests from interested customers regarding a faster version. Let me say this - we will certainly satisfy our customers. We are already working on a faster version."


Honda? Hondaa? Hoooonnnndaaaaaaaaa....? Wake up and turn on the excuse machine. Anything?

....

Why doesn't Honda want to certainly satisfy their customers? Can't be arsed, as our friends across the way would say? No money in making people happy, hmm? Fuji Heavy and Toyota Loom can have the table scrap customers?

I am fully behind the 86 series. I wish them incredible success in their debut and in the years to come. A company who cares about their enthusiasts has my respect. Which is how that goes.. it's why I was cemented as a Honda fan, die hard Honda fan. But hey, I fell in love with them - I should be able to fall out of love with them, too.
HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2012 22:31
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ru4real wrote:
I agree with you totally for once, nice taste in music;-)

Great Song!
revvin
Profile for revvin
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2012 22:46
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330R wrote:
But hey, I fell in love with them - I should be able to fall out of love with them, too.


impossible. i tried man, now I'm just stuck here whining about the good old days.

used s2000 is a better proposition than a new 86 right guys?
DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2012 22:57
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Didn't take long for the madness to start.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUPCwolLrsY&feature=player_embedded#!

330R
Profile for 330R
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2012 23:05
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S2000 is a great car. I wouldn't talk a sports car fan out of one.

330R
Profile for 330R
Re: Subaru BRZ shows average early sales in JP    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2012 23:18
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DCR wrote:
Didn't take long for the madness to start.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUPCwolLrsY&feature=player_embedded#!




Can I play with madness?

Actually I'm good with the 250hp version rumored. The aftermarket companies have been hurting for a car like this to come to market, a car that works reportedly really well at its purpose right out of the box, but is also a blank canvas for more development. I recall reading that Toyota and Subaru plans for seven years worth of models, trim levels, accessories.
JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Subaru BRZ (125hp/L from 7500 RPM? Doubt it)    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-30-2012 11:03
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DCR wrote:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/281035/subaru_brz_sti_planned.html

Subaru has given the biggest hint yet that it is developing a hot STI version of its BRZ sports car and there's a roadster on the way too.


Talking to Auto Express at the launch of the new rear-wheel drive coupe, global marketing manager Atoshi Atake, said: "We have already had many requests from interested customers regarding a faster version. Let me say this - we will certainly satisfy our customers. We are already working on a faster version."


The new range-topping model is expected to take inspiration from the STI concept revealed at the 2011 Los Angeles Motor Show. Under the bonnet will be a more powerful version of the 197bhp 2.0-litre flat-four cylinder 'boxer' from the standard car.


It is likely to produce around 250bhp. "We can definitely develop the intake system," Atake said. "There is certainly room for improvement there." In addition, there is likely to be a freer-flowing exhaust and modifications to the engine's variable valve control system, along with an even higher rev limit of around 7,500rpm.


Subaru says that it will not turbocharge the engine as there is no space at the front of the engine bay for an intercooler. "Plus, we want to keep turbocharging separate. It is for models like the WRX STI," said Atake. "The same goes for four-wheel drive. We could not make the BRZ four-wheel drive even if we wanted to." He also said that supercharging had been dismissed because it would make the BRZ too heavy on fuel.


As well as more power, the BRZ STI is set to weigh even less than the 1,250kg standard car, thanks to racing bucket seats and potentially a carbonfibre roof and bonnet, which will further help to lower the car's centre of gravity. Other tweaks will include a dramatic bodykit, stiffened and lowered suspension, lighter but larger 18-inch alloy wheels and upgraded brakes.


When asked if it was possible to make a convertible version of the BRZ, Atake said: "Yes, that is certainly possible. We already have pillarless doors - you can imagine how removing the roof would make the car look."


Subaru and Toyota have a global sales target of 100,000 models per year for the BRZ, and its sister car, the GT 86. Both cars go on sale in the UK in June, but sales have already begun in Japan where Subaru has sold 3,551 models in the last two months - four times what it expected.




if these guys can achieve 125hp/liter with only 7500 rpms I will be shocked. If they can get there, MORE POWER TO THEM! But at this point, I'm calling BS. 225hp from 2.0L would be impressive with only 7500 rpms to work with.

If it peaked at exactly 7500rpms, it would need to be making 175lb-ft to develop 250hp. A more likely scenario would be a hp peak of around 7000rpms. At 7000 rpms and 250hp, this engine would need to make about 188lb-ft. Not buying it.


Last edited by JeffX on 03-30-2012 11:06
notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Subaru BRZ (125hp/L from 7500 RPM? Doubt it)    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-30-2012 12:04
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+1 Jeff. I'm not even sure the existing 2.0 liter is making a legit 200 hp looking at the accel numbers. Well, that's not fair. It probably is making 200 hp, just not the way the last K20, or even the new K24, in the Civic Si made 200 hp :) After all, how else can a heavier, FWD Civic keep up in a straight line?

If they really wanted 250 hp, they'd probably need to go a 2.5. I don't know about the new Subaru flat four architecture, but the existing 2.5 has no problem revving to 7500 rpm (although in turbo form it's done after about 6000 rpm, power just stays flat and then starts dropping unless you cam it). 250 hp NA would still be a reach I think, but much more realistic (and 190 lbs-ft of torque should not be a problem from a 2.5 liter, 12:1 DI engine).

That said, this car still looks like a real hit. Can't wait to drive it.

SC
 
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