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jeffbatt
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I think a lot of the frustration is coming from people who have owned Integras.
Back in the 90's, when you bought one, for a very competitive price you basically got, compared to the competition:
-the best suspension
-the best engine
-the highest quality
-not a fanciest interior, but the most ergonomic and well put together
-a vey fun car to drive that was also very practical to own
I guess if you really cared about engineering, there was a lot to be proud of with those cars.
I think we just look at the ILX, which is probably a decent car in it's own right, and feel like this stuff just doesn't apply any more or you can't get just as good a car from someone else.
Maybe the market is different now, but just look at the loyalty cars like the integra created! Dead for 10+ years now and tons of people just still want to see that formula repeated! Why would you not want to keep customers like that?
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integrator
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I think thats exactly right. People Still Want Them! That says a lot...and is something Mendel will never comprehend. When I take my '95 out on the weekend, I still get looks of admiration. I still get offers to buy it from me from people driving new cars. Its not for sale. One was the Acura Service Mgr here. Integra owners know its a precious thing and have gone to great lengths to maintain them. RSX? not so much. Ask the service techs... The Integra name brings reverence. The RSX... shrugs of indifference.
Honda/Acura, Iwamura-san.... I'm still surprised when I get back to the airport lot and into my Integra after driving a new rental car, at how much better that car STILL drives than whats being made 17yrs later. A new NSX is nice, BUT The Integra is the well you drink from if you want the aura to return. Mendel's way is the path to more anonymity. I'm not against an ILX. But its not the 'higher ground' approach. Its the Hyundai approach. Think what could be gained if a true Integra successor appeared from this platform, with all the things described above. Forget leather...add a great cloth interior, razor-like steering response, a DWB front suspension, a leather shifter direct from an airplane fighter cockpit. Build it and there would be riots in the streets.
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notyper
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Just had a 2000 4dr GS-R in the shop today. Tasteful ITR style rear wing. Reupholstered seats, but the dash, door panels, etc. were stock. Still looks and drives great. Love the awesome visibility and lithe feeling.
SC
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adrianchew
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jeffbatt wrote:
I think a lot of the frustration is coming from people who have owned Integras. |
So sad to see how Honda has forgotten its roots. Losing the Integra was like Subaru killing the WRX, or a Mitsubishi without an Evo, or a Mazda without the Miata. Heck, even the American car companies realized that killing the Mustang and Camaro was STUPID!!!
Bring back the Integra, Prelude and S2000! A CRX would be nice too (not this stupid nonsensical hybrid CR-Z).
Instead, they're building some hybrid supercar NSX... the NSX is NOT meant to be a hybrid, you morons! The original NSX sold to real enthusiasts, drivers, not like your average supercar that gets sold to celebrities and such.
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Farage1
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what ever happened to the "performance" version cr-z?
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Kool Aid
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In all likelyhood, nothing happened to it. I wasn't expecting it for 2012 before the tsunami and later the Thai flooding. IMO, a niche of a niche product should take a slight 'back burner' if there are more important things in the pipeline. (for example early mmc of the Civic?)
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owequitit
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adrianchew wrote:
jeffbatt wrote:
I think a lot of the frustration is coming from people who have owned Integras. |
So sad to see how Honda has forgotten its roots. Losing the Integra was like Subaru killing the WRX, or a Mitsubishi without an Evo, or a Mazda without the Miata. Heck, even the American car companies realized that killing the Mustang and Camaro was STUPID!!!
Bring back the Integra, Prelude and S2000! A CRX would be nice too (not this stupid nonsensical hybrid CR-Z).
Instead, they're building some hybrid supercar NSX... the NSX is NOT meant to be a hybrid, you morons! The original NSX sold to real enthusiasts, drivers, not like your average supercar that gets sold to celebrities and such.
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Look at the bright side. At least they killed it before they messed it up. Otherwise it would have gone the way of the FWD SS GM badged cars that were a horrendous dump on the legacy of the SS product. Honestly, I am surprised Honda/Acura hasn't affixed a GS-R or Type R symbol to a Civic LX with a rear spoiler with they way they are handling "enthusiast" product these days. Berkman better deliver, and he better do it quickly.
A 210HP supercharged CR-Z with LSD and decent handling credentials would go a long way toward healing the wound, as would a real, stripped down, high revving Civic Type R. I don't care if Honda keeps the hooligan vehicles as Hondas or Acuras as long as they keep them.
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Powered by Honda
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jeffbatt wrote:
I think a lot of the frustration is coming from people who have owned Integras.
Back in the 90's, when you bought one, for a very competitive price you basically got, compared to the competition:
-the best suspension
-the best engine
-the highest quality
-not a fanciest interior, but the most ergonomic and well put together
-a vey fun car to drive that was also very practical to own
I guess if you really cared about engineering, there was a lot to be proud of with those cars.
I think we just look at the ILX, which is probably a decent car in it's own right, and feel like this stuff just doesn't apply any more or you can't get just as good a car from someone else.
Maybe the market is different now, but just look at the loyalty cars like the integra created! Dead for 10+ years now and tons of people just still want to see that formula repeated! Why would you not want to keep customers like that?
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The ILX probably has the same quality as the Integra + a higher quality interior.
The engine is kinda lagging but it the Earthdreams will fix it.
Suspension best on Integra? oh I dunno about that. Dunno how the ILX drives but its probably comparable to the teggy.
So its not all bad. I sat in the ILX and its not bad. Just needs a good engine.
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jeffbatt
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The suspension on the integra was in all probability better than the ILX.
But I am really talking about what it was at the time. Look at the competition in 1994. Compared to the integra they were crap. The integra, hands down had the best suspension of all similar cars back then. I don't even know if anything else was in the same ballpark, many didn't even have independant rear suspensions. The fact we're even debating the merits of the ILX vs a car almost 20 years older just reinforces what a great car the integra was.
The interior of the ILX may seem nice, and it probably is nice, but it looks like it suffers honda's recent love of too many buttons and is not driver-focused in the way an integra's was. I am also not sure if it will hold up as well as an integra's as the years go by. The integra formula that was so awesome did not mean it had a fancy interior...what it did have was super solid, well thought out, and driver focused in a way that Honda has almost stopped doing.
If we were told about the specs of the ILX back then, I think we would assume it was a VW jetta or something.
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jeffbatt
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Also, having owned many hondas and acuras, I firmly believe their overall build quality in the 90's was better than their more recent cars.
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Powered by Honda
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jeffbatt wrote:
The suspension on the integra was in all probability better than the ILX.
But I am really talking about what it was at the time. Look at the competition in 1994. Compared to the integra they were crap. The integra, hands down had the best suspension of all similar cars back then. I don't even know if anything else was in the same ballpark, many didn't even have independant rear suspensions. The fact we're even debating the merits of the ILX vs a car almost 20 years older just reinforces what a great car the integra was.
The interior of the ILX may seem nice, and it probably is nice, but it looks like it suffers honda's recent love of too many buttons and is not driver-focused in the way an integra's was. I am also not sure if it will hold up as well as an integra's as the years go by. The integra formula that was so awesome did not mean it had a fancy interior...what it did have was super solid, well thought out, and driver focused in a way that Honda has almost stopped doing.
If we were told about the specs of the ILX back then, I think we would assume it was a VW jetta or something.
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Yes you are right. The competition is better now. But that is expected. Most of their cars have more features then hondas for less. However, I was loving Hyundai until I drove them...now I dont care too much that I get less features for MORE money with Hondas. Honda driving feel is so good but you take it for granted when your in one everyday. Only driving the competition can wake you up and send you back to reality.
I have a feeling the ILX will bring back the solid feel of old school Hondas. I'm anxiously waiting for Jeffs driving impressions.
SIDE NOTE:
Also, theres little things that just Honda does better that goes unseen. I change windshields or any glass on all cars for a living.
shameless plug: http://www.amco-autoglass.com click like button please! hehe
Call if you live in GTA say you know PBH and get discount!
Anyways, i saw a new mazda 3 rusting from underneath the cowl where the bottom of the windshield is held in place. Not very safe and undetectable without the glass and cowl off. A design flaw allows condensation there somehow? Horrible! Never seen that before on other cars except mazdas.
FINAL NOTE: I kinda wanna buy a mint integra just cuz you reminded me how great they are. lol :p
Last edited by NealX on 03-25-2012 18:32
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integrator
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Any Honda product isn't known for the highest power available. But they were known for the handling. No DWB's = FAIL
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atomiclightbulb
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jeffbatt wrote:
Also, having owned many hondas and acuras, I firmly believe their overall build quality in the 90's was better than their more recent cars. |
My experience w' Acura is limited, but my sense is that Honda interior quality peaked in the mid-2000's. My '94 Accord's interior design looked great even in 2009, and I think the 7G Accord (2003-2007) is even better. Likewise, the 8G Civic (2006-2011) was impressive for its class.
Things started to go downhill with the 8G Accord. I see Model Year 2008 as the turning point when successive models started to lose their design cohesiveness, ergonomics, and nice interior touches. Things are turning around though. The CR-V is definitely a signal that Honda is committed to good interior design going forward.
jeffbatt wrote:
The suspension on the integra was in all probability better than the ILX. |
integrator wrote:
Any Honda product isn't known for the highest power available. But they were known for the handling. No DWB's = FAIL |
I'm not so sure the double wishbone matters so much anymore. The 8G Si handles very well for an FF sedan, and it has struts up front. My personal opinion is that the limited slip differential is more important. Why? On my 7G Accord, hitting the throttle when cornering results in nasty wheelspin and loss of traction. This was lessened some once I threw out the OEM Bridgestone tires (utter junk), but even with better tires it still happens. Try the same thing in the 8G Si, and the LSD prevents that from happening.
The ILX will probably live up to its Acura heritage in terms of interior design and practicality, and engine too (after Earth Dreams upgrade). I just don't know if it'll have the cornering capability that it should have in the 2.4L version. Without the LSD, it'll certainly suffer the same problems as the 7G Accord.
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owequitit
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
jeffbatt wrote:
Also, having owned many hondas and acuras, I firmly believe their overall build quality in the 90's was better than their more recent cars. |
My experience w' Acura is limited, but my sense is that Honda interior quality peaked in the mid-2000's. My '94 Accord's interior design looked great even in 2009, and I think the 7G Accord (2003-2007) is even better. Likewise, the 8G Civic (2006-2011) was impressive for its class.
Things started to go downhill with the 8G Accord. I see Model Year 2008 as the turning point when successive models started to lose their design cohesiveness, ergonomics, and nice interior touches. Things are turning around though. The CR-V is definitely a signal that Honda is committed to good interior design going forward.
jeffbatt wrote:
The suspension on the integra was in all probability better than the ILX. |
integrator wrote:
Any Honda product isn't known for the highest power available. But they were known for the handling. No DWB's = FAIL |
I'm not so sure the double wishbone matters so much anymore. The 8G Si handles very well for an FF sedan, and it has struts up front. My personal opinion is that the limited slip differential is more important. Why? On my 7G Accord, hitting the throttle when cornering results in nasty wheelspin and loss of traction. This was lessened some once I threw out the OEM Bridgestone tires (utter junk), but even with better tires it still happens. Try the same thing in the 8G Si, and the LSD prevents that from happening.
The ILX will probably live up to its Acura heritage in terms of interior design and practicality, and engine too (after Earth Dreams upgrade). I just don't know if it'll have the cornering capability that it should have in the 2.4L version. Without the LSD, it'll certainly suffer the same problems as the 7G Accord.
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IMO, Honda interior quality bottomed in the early 2000's. The 6th gen Accord had an interior that was crappier than both of our 7th gen's and our 8th gen. The vinyl like leather (which was splitting by the end of year 4), the hard top dash and the cheap, easily scratched plastics. I had more quality concerns with that car than any Honda we have ever owned. My friend had a 4 banger and it was pretty lackluster as well. Then there were the perpetual tranny issues, and the more I dug into the car behind where the average owner sees it, the more I didn't like it.
To be fair, the current crop of Hondas are still not where they used to be, but overall the trend has been better IMO. That includes the Civic where my cousin's 2001 Civic had some interior based issues, as well as some other 7th gen Civics I have dealt with, but my 8th has had none.
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Powered by Honda
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owequitit wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
jeffbatt wrote:
Also, having owned many hondas and acuras, I firmly believe their overall build quality in the 90's was better than their more recent cars. |
My experience w' Acura is limited, but my sense is that Honda interior quality peaked in the mid-2000's. My '94 Accord's interior design looked great even in 2009, and I think the 7G Accord (2003-2007) is even better. Likewise, the 8G Civic (2006-2011) was impressive for its class.
Things started to go downhill with the 8G Accord. I see Model Year 2008 as the turning point when successive models started to lose their design cohesiveness, ergonomics, and nice interior touches. Things are turning around though. The CR-V is definitely a signal that Honda is committed to good interior design going forward.
jeffbatt wrote:
The suspension on the integra was in all probability better than the ILX. |
integrator wrote:
Any Honda product isn't known for the highest power available. But they were known for the handling. No DWB's = FAIL |
I'm not so sure the double wishbone matters so much anymore. The 8G Si handles very well for an FF sedan, and it has struts up front. My personal opinion is that the limited slip differential is more important. Why? On my 7G Accord, hitting the throttle when cornering results in nasty wheelspin and loss of traction. This was lessened some once I threw out the OEM Bridgestone tires (utter junk), but even with better tires it still happens. Try the same thing in the 8G Si, and the LSD prevents that from happening.
The ILX will probably live up to its Acura heritage in terms of interior design and practicality, and engine too (after Earth Dreams upgrade). I just don't know if it'll have the cornering capability that it should have in the 2.4L version. Without the LSD, it'll certainly suffer the same problems as the 7G Accord.
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IMO, Honda interior quality bottomed in the early 2000's. The 6th gen Accord had an interior that was crappier than both of our 7th gen's and our 8th gen. The vinyl like leather (which was splitting by the end of year 4), the hard top dash and the cheap, easily scratched plastics. I had more quality concerns with that car than any Honda we have ever owned. My friend had a 4 banger and it was pretty lackluster as well. Then there were the perpetual tranny issues, and the more I dug into the car behind where the average owner sees it, the more I didn't like it.
To be fair, the current crop of Hondas are still not where they used to be, but overall the trend has been better IMO. That includes the Civic where my cousin's 2001 Civic had some interior based issues, as well as some other 7th gen Civics I have dealt with, but my 8th has had none.
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I agree on the 6th gen. 8th civic has radio screen peel problems from extreme hot climates and floppy sun visors that break in extreme heat aswell. I believe the radio screens ahve a recall.
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DrWhiner
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Sorry I fail to share your fondness of the old Teg interior.
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jeffbatt
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Please compare it to other designs almost 20 years old. Ever been in a mid-90's GM compact car? The Integra was really nice at the time, probably ahead of it's time. Looked a little better with the stock radio, imo.
But anyway, I see nothing wrong with that interior. Simple controls and driver-focused. Built really solid: the only Honda/Acura I've ever owned without interior rattles. Good plastics that didn't scratch if you looked at them wrong.
What I am *not* saying in all this is that Acura should re-issue the 1994 Integra. What I am saying is that they should try to repeat that formula in 2012. This obviously means more modern engines and styling.
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notyper
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How about picking a more flattering view?
Notice the airiness of the interior. The graceful, simple curve on the dash. The clear, easy to read instruments. And of course, the amazing visibility out of the car.
Translate this today by adding some contrasting color accents (the JDM Type-R DC2 offered that as an option), some upgraded seats (I do think the FG2 Si seats are outstanding, among the best Honda has ever offered) and a few more electronics, but that's all you'd need IMO.
It's a fundamentally good interior. Clean, functional, attractive and roomy.
SC
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owequitit
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Powered by Honda wrote:
owequitit wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
jeffbatt wrote:
Also, having owned many hondas and acuras, I firmly believe their overall build quality in the 90's was better than their more recent cars. |
My experience w' Acura is limited, but my sense is that Honda interior quality peaked in the mid-2000's. My '94 Accord's interior design looked great even in 2009, and I think the 7G Accord (2003-2007) is even better. Likewise, the 8G Civic (2006-2011) was impressive for its class.
Things started to go downhill with the 8G Accord. I see Model Year 2008 as the turning point when successive models started to lose their design cohesiveness, ergonomics, and nice interior touches. Things are turning around though. The CR-V is definitely a signal that Honda is committed to good interior design going forward.
jeffbatt wrote:
The suspension on the integra was in all probability better than the ILX. |
integrator wrote:
Any Honda product isn't known for the highest power available. But they were known for the handling. No DWB's = FAIL |
I'm not so sure the double wishbone matters so much anymore. The 8G Si handles very well for an FF sedan, and it has struts up front. My personal opinion is that the limited slip differential is more important. Why? On my 7G Accord, hitting the throttle when cornering results in nasty wheelspin and loss of traction. This was lessened some once I threw out the OEM Bridgestone tires (utter junk), but even with better tires it still happens. Try the same thing in the 8G Si, and the LSD prevents that from happening.
The ILX will probably live up to its Acura heritage in terms of interior design and practicality, and engine too (after Earth Dreams upgrade). I just don't know if it'll have the cornering capability that it should have in the 2.4L version. Without the LSD, it'll certainly suffer the same problems as the 7G Accord.
|
IMO, Honda interior quality bottomed in the early 2000's. The 6th gen Accord had an interior that was crappier than both of our 7th gen's and our 8th gen. The vinyl like leather (which was splitting by the end of year 4), the hard top dash and the cheap, easily scratched plastics. I had more quality concerns with that car than any Honda we have ever owned. My friend had a 4 banger and it was pretty lackluster as well. Then there were the perpetual tranny issues, and the more I dug into the car behind where the average owner sees it, the more I didn't like it.
To be fair, the current crop of Hondas are still not where they used to be, but overall the trend has been better IMO. That includes the Civic where my cousin's 2001 Civic had some interior based issues, as well as some other 7th gen Civics I have dealt with, but my 8th has had none.
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I agree on the 6th gen. 8th civic has radio screen peel problems from extreme hot climates and floppy sun visors that break in extreme heat aswell. I believe the radio screens ahve a recall.
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A lot of that stuff has been fixed. I did have an issue with the radio display, but it was different than the one related to heat, and it Honda took care of it under warranty no questions asked
I don't think the sun visors affect anything after about 2008, as they changed the design and construction of them.
Also, I would rather have those issues as compared to the paint peel, and tranny issues of the 6th gen.
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DrWhiner
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You can blame the high belt line, thick pillar on those tigher and tigher side-impact test and roof strength requirement. It not just Honda, BMW of a few generations ago also had slim A pillars. (Interesting that the current Civic is said to have a slimmer A pillar, thanks to the 'unsighty' (and much 'hated') fixed quarter-glass and sub-pillar next to the side-view mirror. (DCR, have you learnt sth new?)
not that long ago, a five-star crash test result means excellent, a relative rarity. Now, witness what happen to 08-11 Accord that failed to achieve the top score. A five-star result is now the minimum for EVERY car.
Unless the boomers start to realize adding more and more passive safety features only make cars heavier, bulkier, thirstier and prob. handles not so well. Whatever you gain, you lose something else. There's just no FREE LUNMCH.
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A77
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Slimmer front pillars are more to do with higher tensile steel - witness gen 7 to gen 8 Accord, current to last Fit, CRV etc. But B and c pillars continue to grow, something women drivers almost always complain about. rear cameras therefore becoming standard. Not that that helps with anything but parking, and that's only half the issue.
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DCR
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DrWhiner wrote:
Sorry I fail to share your fondness of the old Teg interior.
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Given your join date and attitude...are you sure you don't work for Honda? Seems like we've got a couple of paid trolls running around.
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integrator
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Perhaps just one... with multiple accounts.
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VTECRacer
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LOL Pot calling the kettle black.
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DCR
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That doesn't make sense.
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DrWhiner
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I'm an enthusiast
because I AM angry as HELL,
I AM losing hair,
I AM growing OLD,
My wais t is getting bigger and bigger,
I DON't get the FAT check to BUY what I WANT,
I AM an enthusiast,
I have nothing better to do other than BITCH and whine ALL day, and ALL NITE.
HAve a NICE day/
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VTECRacer
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DrWhiner wrote:
I'm an enthusiast
because I AM angry as HELL,
I AM losing hair,
I AM growing OLD,
My wais t is getting bigger and bigger,
I DON't get the FAT check to BUY what I WANT,
I AM an enthusiast,
I have nothing better to do other than BITCH and whine ALL day, and ALL NITE.
HAve a NICE day/
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+1
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DCR
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"+1"
You guys are really solid contributors to the topics at hand. What would we do without you? I wish we knew.
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CR-V9
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Speaking of 'losing hair", one time when Soichiro and his wife visited Europe together, I think it was Switzerland or Austria. He found this hair growth formula lotion. It sounded so good to him. It was a european made, after all. He bought a year supply of them. They emptied their suitscases and stuffed up with this things. Back then you were only allowed to bring in a certain number of luggages to a plane.
Once back home, he had started to use it religiously everyday. After a week or two, he asked his wife "What do you see? Do you think you see a couple of them coming out over here?" "No, dear. Nothing's happening. You're imaginging as usual."(He was a dreamer)
After 6 months or so, he gave it up.
(just a small side Soichiro story I remembered)
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jeffbatt
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I will admit that I am getting older but the rest if your points don't really apply.
I still like sporty, small, reasonably priced and practical cars. I did my time with a more expensive German coupe and found it wasn't worth the cost.
I really hope if you actually work for Honda his is not what you think of your loyal customers.
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