|
|
|
|
 |
TSX69
 |
|
Rumored: Honda/Acura Could Adopt ZF 9-Speed Automastic by 2014
Although most of Honda’s recent powertrain news has surrounded CVTs and dual-clutch transmissions, that shouldn’t be taken as a sign the automaker is abandoning conventional automatics altogether. In fact, the automaker will likely adopt a 9-speed automatic by 2014 at the earliest.
Automotive News first reported in late 2011 that Honda was planning on launching an eight- or nine-speed automatic in the near future, but a source close to the program now tells us the automaker will use the new nine-speed transverse automatic developed by German powertrain supplier ZF.
|
typer_801
|
|
|
Hallelujah! This will go a long way towards improving the perception Honda powertrain is class-leading again!
|
Midi_Amp
|
|
typer_801 wrote:
Hallelujah! This will go a long way towards improving the perception Honda powertrain is class-leading again!
|
Sadly it's not Honda powertrain anymore, it's mish mash of Honda engine and somebody else's component. Still it's good though, I'm all for more gear, I do however questions the use of a 9 speed gearbox on Honda lineup. What good is a 9 speed? I think we are clear Honda/Acura won't have big block engine, what good is multiple high gear if the engine doesn't have enough power? At cruising speed, the lack of power would make the gearbox goes crazy with the gear selection... 9-7-5-6-9-... You got my point.
If the Acura V8 goes into production, I'll be oh okay, that's good, but for a V6, 9 speed is overkill.
|
BlackSeries
|
|
|
Atleast 9sp sounds better than lame CVT.
|
according2kev
|
|
Midi_Amp wrote:
typer_801 wrote:
Hallelujah! This will go a long way towards improving the perception Honda powertrain is class-leading again!
|
|
I agree. 6-7 gears is fine.
|
FiSH-Chan
|
|
Midi_Amp wrote:
typer_801 wrote:
Hallelujah! This will go a long way towards improving the perception Honda powertrain is class-leading again!
|
Sadly it's not Honda powertrain anymore, it's mish mash of Honda engine and somebody else's component. Still it's good though, I'm all for more gear, I do however questions the use of a 9 speed gearbox on Honda lineup. What good is a 9 speed? |
They may have just send some engineers to look at the 9 speed or maybe discuss some possiblility to purchase or something doesn't mean it will happen. But I agree, 9 speed is really overkill. 6 or 7, okay.. depends on the engine.. but 9 is really way too much, might as well just improve on the CVT!!!
|
superchg2
|
|
|
All we've been asking for is a gosh darned 6 speed automatic!
|
Potenza
|
|
Midi_Amp wrote:
What good is a 9 speed? I think we are clear Honda/Acura won't have big block engine, what good is multiple high gear if the engine doesn't have enough power?
|
Though that's not really the way gears are being used anymore. Now it's more about engine speed, fuel economy and the like.
|
Twiz
|
|
Midi_Amp wrote:
typer_801 wrote:
Hallelujah! This will go a long way towards improving the perception Honda powertrain is class-leading again!
|
Sadly it's not Honda powertrain anymore, it's mish mash of Honda engine and somebody else's component. Still it's good though, I'm all for more gear, I do however questions the use of a 9 speed gearbox on Honda lineup. What good is a 9 speed? I think we are clear Honda/Acura won't have big block engine, what good is multiple high gear if the engine doesn't have enough power? At cruising speed, the lack of power would make the gearbox goes crazy with the gear selection... 9-7-5-6-9-... You got my point.
If the Acura V8 goes into production, I'll be oh okay, that's good, but for a V6, 9 speed is overkill.
|
last time i check, the automatic transmissions were never that great... they tune it very well (not recently with the civic or crv) but honestly the 5spd auto from honda are horrible. so maybe its a good thing that honda outsource transmissions.. I highly doubt this is true because isn't CVT the new thing for 4 cyl engines with ED tech. and Dual Clutch for Acura?
my guess with Automatics:
all 4cyl = CVT
Honda line up v6 = 6 speed
Acura line up v6 = 7 speed Dual Clutch
|
auto_enthu
|
|
I don't think 9speed will be a reality anytime in the next few years.
Acura is yet to offer 6speed across its line-up.
Given how slowly Acura is adding 6spd to its line-up, it is pretty evident that Acura is looking for more real-world data and wants to do everything to prevent the repeat of transmission failures it encountered during the early days of 5spd AT.
BTW, I'm not blaming Acura/Honda. It is only learning from its mistakes.
I don't expect Acura to jump into adopting a supplier's transmission anytime soon. Even if it does, it may only offer it in very-low-volume vehicles upward of $50k.
|
Nino
|
|
That is correct, you can never have enough gear with weak engine.
Powerful engine actually does not need as many gears as it takes time to shift gears and with that much torque going to the ground things will break.
Take for example 2007-2009 MDX and Honda finally figured that tranny out for the most part (5spd), 2010 gets out with 6 speed and now they are having tranny issues again as the same engine puts down 20-30% more torque down in certain gears and busts torque converters once again. But 2010 is faster 0-60 by 1 sec or so, there is just no free lunch though...
V8 5 spd is plenty, V6 is OK with 6, I4 could use 7.
But none of this has any merit if you ask marketing. CVT is retarded, but everyone is doing it.
|
TonyEX
|
|
BlackSeries wrote:
Atleast 9sp sounds better than lame CVT.
|
Not reallly, it's all how you set the computer....
A CVT like the current IMA is set to keep the engine at peak torque, hence it operates in a manner very different on how we grew up with transmisions with a discrete set of gears.
Now then, I think that a CVT with a powerful engine would indeed provide tons of ooomph...
The issue, however, is response. A "traditional" CVT is slow to "kick down".
OTOH, a CVT with a "conventional mode", say a 7 speed, would not have to change widely spaced gears, hence it would shift (change gear ratios) down quickly. And, if it had enough "gears", say 6 or 7, then the "downshifts" would be quite fast. Likely faster than a slushbox with a torque converter and a high fuel economy map (re: GM's CUVs)
Of course, me, in the 05 Accord V6/MT6 or even the GSR could easily downshift bypassing some gears and immediately be in the power band... but that's why MT's are preferrable in my book for that kind of action.
But for an automatic, a CVT offering both the "classical keep the engine in the power band mode" and a hybrid pseudo sequential multi-gear mode can be indeed a very fast transmission.
And, because of the lack of clutches, it's always on power and more efficient.
|
BlackSeries
|
|
TonyE wrote:
BlackSeries wrote:
Atleast 9sp sounds better than lame CVT.
|
Not reallly, it's all how you set the computer....
A CVT like the current IMA is set to keep the engine at peak torque, hence it operates in a manner very different on how we grew up with transmisions with a discrete set of gears.
Now then, I think that a CVT with a powerful engine would indeed provide tons of ooomph...
The issue, however, is response. A "traditional" CVT is slow to "kick down".
OTOH, a CVT with a "conventional mode", say a 7 speed, would not have to change widely spaced gears, hence it would shift (change gear ratios) down quickly. And, if it had enough "gears", say 6 or 7, then the "downshifts" would be quite fast. Likely faster than a slushbox with a torque converter and a high fuel economy map (re: GM's CUVs)
Of course, me, in the 05 Accord V6/MT6 or even the GSR could easily downshift bypassing some gears and immediately be in the power band... but that's why MT's are preferrable in my book for that kind of action.
But for an automatic, a CVT offering both the "classical keep the engine in the power band mode" and a hybrid pseudo sequential multi-gear mode can be indeed a very fast transmission.
And, because of the lack of clutches, it's always on power and more efficient.
|
CVT has efficiency, but fun...hell no! For ex: Nissan, the master of CVT, limits the throttle in Maxima for upto 40mph for durability purpose. One way or another, CVT just sucks.
IMO, CVT should only be offered in hybrids, they are not really practical for high output engines.
|
RolledaNsx
|
|
CVT for the I4's
7 speed DUAL CLUTCH for the RL and NSX
ZF 9-SPEED for the TL,MDX,PILOT
So if rumor comes to be the 7 speed DUAL-CLUTCH TRANSMISSION only for sport models
|
Kulgan
|
|
|
At least in BMWs, ZF trannies are known for smoothness & performance, but not for reliability. Partly due to BMWs lack of maintenance on their automatics. BMW claims 'lifetime' fluid in their ZF automatics and dont ask for a fluid change until 100k miles. Not only do hardly any of them make it to 150k miles before replacement, the ZF fluids are very expensive. Even if you're trying to buy from a Hyundai dealer lol! (it's about $16 per quart for the latest ZF automatic fluids)
|
gogzy
|
|
Kulgan wrote:
At least in BMWs, ZF trannies are known for smoothness & performance, but not for reliability. Partly due to BMWs lack of maintenance on their automatics. BMW claims 'lifetime' fluid in their ZF automatics and dont ask for a fluid change until 100k miles. Not only do hardly any of them make it to 150k miles before replacement, the ZF fluids are very expensive. Even if you're trying to buy from a Hyundai dealer lol! (it's about $16 per quart for the latest ZF automatic fluids)
|
it's also very difficult to DIY ATF change on these ZF. the tool involved can be expensive as well.
|
NSXman
|
|
RolledaNsx wrote:
CVT for the I4's
7 speed DUAL CLUTCH for the RL and NSX
ZF 9-SPEED for the TL,MDX,PILOT
So if rumor comes to be the 7 speed DUAL-CLUTCH TRANSMISSION only for sport models
|
Isn't Chrysler using the 9-speed in FWD applications and the 7-speed in the RWD applications? At least over the coming years?
|
notyper
|
|
Consider this. Arguably the best gearbox Honda has ever offered is the 6MT in the S2000. Honda doesn't make that transmission - Aisin does.
I have no problem with Honda outsourcing automatic transmissions. The traditional Honda AT design is a bandaid to get around patent issues that others hold on traditional planetary type auto transmissions. The Honda style AT is not going to be as efficient, compact, or reliable as a good planetary setup.
While 9 spds is definitely into the area of diminishing returns (I think that ZF quotes up to a 16% advantage over a 6AT in EPA style testing, but I think that's with adding a start stop system. They only claim a 6% advantage for their 8AT over a 6AT), you have to go with what is offered. The ZF 9AT is rated up to about 350 lbs-ft (in the high torque version, the lesser offering is good to 190 lbs-ft) so it should handle any V6 Honda is going to offer. The 8AT will handle 500 lbs-ft.
SC
|
auto_enthu
|
|
BlackSeries wrote:
TonyE wrote:
BlackSeries wrote:
Atleast 9sp sounds better than lame CVT.
|
Not reallly, it's all how you set the computer....
A CVT like the current IMA is set to keep the engine at peak torque, hence it operates in a manner very different on how we grew up with transmisions with a discrete set of gears.
Now then, I think that a CVT with a powerful engine would indeed provide tons of ooomph...
The issue, however, is response. A "traditional" CVT is slow to "kick down".
OTOH, a CVT with a "conventional mode", say a 7 speed, would not have to change widely spaced gears, hence it would shift (change gear ratios) down quickly. And, if it had enough "gears", say 6 or 7, then the "downshifts" would be quite fast. Likely faster than a slushbox with a torque converter and a high fuel economy map (re: GM's CUVs)
Of course, me, in the 05 Accord V6/MT6 or even the GSR could easily downshift bypassing some gears and immediately be in the power band... but that's why MT's are preferrable in my book for that kind of action.
But for an automatic, a CVT offering both the "classical keep the engine in the power band mode" and a hybrid pseudo sequential multi-gear mode can be indeed a very fast transmission.
And, because of the lack of clutches, it's always on power and more efficient.
|
CVT has efficiency, but fun...hell no! For ex: Nissan, the master of CVT, limits the throttle in Maxima for upto 40mph for durability purpose. One way or another, CVT just sucks.
IMO, CVT should only be offered in hybrids, they are not really practical for high output engines.
|
while I agree that the best CVTs in the market, are not great, I have some hopes for Honda's ED CVT that the new Accord will get.
All initial reviews (from those who drove one in Japan), indicated that there is almost no way you can tell it is CVT unless someone tells you it is a CVT.
May be ED CVT has the best of both worlds. Let's wait and see.
|
DrWhiner
|
|
I don't know how the story makes sense.
We know ZF should start building 9HPs within its South Carolina plant in 2013 for Chrysler, but rumor has it Honda won’t start using the transmission until 2014. If so, the next-generation Acura TL, which is expected to launch in late 2013, could be one of the first vehicles to utilize the transmission.
Read more: http://rumors.automobilemag.com/deep-dive-honda-acura-could-adopt-zf-9-speed-automatic-by-2014-118443.html#ixzz1pzehnHYU
|
NSXforever
|
|
notyper wrote:
Consider this. Arguably the best gearbox Honda has ever offered is the 6MT in the S2000. Honda doesn't make that transmission - Aisin does.
I have no problem with Honda outsourcing automatic transmissions. The traditional Honda AT design is a bandaid to get around patent issues that others hold on traditional planetary type auto transmissions. The Honda style AT is not going to be as efficient, compact, or reliable as a good planetary setup.
While 9 spds is definitely into the area of diminishing returns (I think that ZF quotes up to a 16% advantage over a 6AT in EPA style testing, but I think that's with adding a start stop system. They only claim a 6% advantage for their 8AT over a 6AT), you have to go with what is offered. The ZF 9AT is rated up to about 350 lbs-ft (in the high torque version, the lesser offering is good to 190 lbs-ft) so it should handle any V6 Honda is going to offer. The 8AT will handle 500 lbs-ft.
SC
|
This....if they need to go to someone else to make relevant transmissions they do it. Plenty of Automakers share.
|
RolledaNsx
|
|
Honda must go more gears in the transmission to meet the future EPA mpg and to do that and keep the transmission small they must use planetary gears and dog clutches. The only problem is other companies owns the patents on that type transmission. It would take a lot money,time and research to build that transmission around the patents!
So it would be smart to work with ZF and also ZF is going to make it here in the US where Honda Makes most of their V6 powered autos.
|
CarPhreakD
|
|
I don't think this is going to happen, especially with Honda going to the CVTs.
The patent issues are also bogus. Most automatics use some series of planetary gearsets so Honda doesn't NEED to go to ZF for this; there's literally a near infinite way to put them together to make up the various speeds, particularly when you start adding more wet clutches and shared shafts/ring gears into the mix.
NSXman wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
CVT for the I4's
7 speed DUAL CLUTCH for the RL and NSX
ZF 9-SPEED for the TL,MDX,PILOT
So if rumor comes to be the 7 speed DUAL-CLUTCH TRANSMISSION only for sport models
|
Isn't Chrysler using the 9-speed in FWD applications and the 7-speed in the RWD applications? At least over the coming years?
|
They have the 8hp tranny for their Pentastar and soon, HEMI engines. The Dodge Dart will soon get the 9hp
|
iutodd
|
|
notyper wrote:
Consider this. Arguably the best gearbox Honda has ever offered is the 6MT in the S2000. Honda doesn't make that transmission - Aisin does.
I have no problem with Honda outsourcing automatic transmissions. The traditional Honda AT design is a bandaid to get around patent issues that others hold on traditional planetary type auto transmissions. The Honda style AT is not going to be as efficient, compact, or reliable as a good planetary setup.
While 9 spds is definitely into the area of diminishing returns (I think that ZF quotes up to a 16% advantage over a 6AT in EPA style testing, but I think that's with adding a start stop system. They only claim a 6% advantage for their 8AT over a 6AT), you have to go with what is offered. The ZF 9AT is rated up to about 350 lbs-ft (in the high torque version, the lesser offering is good to 190 lbs-ft) so it should handle any V6 Honda is going to offer. The 8AT will handle 500 lbs-ft.
SC
|
I think we're going to start seeing more of this unfortunately as automakers push to get as high an EPA-rating as possible. It's also a cache thing a little bit I think (though that hasn't really seemed to matter to Acura/Honda so far). If I remember correctly when Acura MMCed the TL they talked about how they looked at adding more speeds to the transmissions but the reasoning seemed to be the car already got 29 MPG so they didn't see the reason to add more gears. With CAFE regulations becoming much stiffer over the next 3-4 years that probably won't continue to happen as automaker's are going to be forced to get all the MPG they can. Honda sells so many Pilots and Odysseys and MDXs that those diminishing returns of 5-6% are really going to start to matter.
|
notyper
|
|
The patent issue is not bogus. Either Honda has to pay royalties, buy the rights to certain patents, or engineer around them. That's the whole reason for the Hondamatic design with individual clutch packs for each gear (I heard that at the time a lot of patents held by Borg Warner were the issue, but that's hearsay).
A planetary automatic design is far more compact, simpler and apparently more reliable than the Hondamatic setup, especially as power levels climb. The Hondamatic is a legacy that does Honda no good.
SC
|
Kool Aid
|
|
notyper wrote:
The patent issue is not bogus. Either Honda has to pay royalties, buy the rights to certain patents, or engineer around them.
SC
|
Also the likely reason that Honda took a product cycle to engineer around the Toyota/Paice hybrid setup. It was either pay someone else, or engineer a way around it.
|
Fan Koni
|
|
It is strange for Honda to make a 7 geared DCT and only use it for the hybrids - NSX & RL.
Would make it hugely expensive...
Or the 7 speed is geared very differently.
|
RolledaNsx
|
|
Maybe the 7 SPEED DCT is for longitudinal engines.
They want to race the new NSX and the transverse engine layout sucks when the power goes up, always breaking those unequal length haftshafts!
|
Power Of Dreams
|
|
Midi_Amp wrote:
typer_801 wrote:
Hallelujah! This will go a long way towards improving the perception Honda powertrain is class-leading again!
|
Sadly it's not Honda powertrain anymore, it's mish mash of Honda engine and somebody else's component. Still it's good though, I'm all for more gear, I do however questions the use of a 9 speed gearbox on Honda lineup. What good is a 9 speed? I think we are clear Honda/Acura won't have big block engine, what good is multiple high gear if the engine doesn't have enough power? At cruising speed, the lack of power would make the gearbox goes crazy with the gear selection... 9-7-5-6-9-... You got my point.
If the Acura V8 goes into production, I'll be oh okay, that's good, but for a V6, 9 speed is overkill.
|
What difference will it make?
Honda is not known for making good automatic transmissions, and their stubborn adherence to a non-planetary gearset has not made their automatics any more reliable or efficient. The 5AT in the Accord V6/TL was a disaster.
|
Power Of Dreams
|
|
RolledaNsx wrote:
So if rumor comes to be the 7 speed DUAL-CLUTCH TRANSMISSION only for sport models
|
Or luxury hybrid V6 sport models to be more precise. I'm not sure I would want a dual-clutch in a Pilot or an SUV considering what can go wrong.
|
|
|
| |
|
| Thread Page - [1] |
| |
|
![[home]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/home.gif){kind=small}
![[rumors and news]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/rumors.gif){kind=small}
![[model release matrix]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/newmodelreleasematrix.gif){kind=small}
![[dealer network]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/dealernet.gif){kind=small}
![[desktop calendar]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/calendar.gif){kind=small}
![[exhaust notes]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/exhaust.gif){kind=small}
![[tov forums]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/forums.gif){kind=small}
![[links]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/links.gif){kind=small}
![[search]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/search.gif){kind=small}
![[sponsors]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/sponsors.gif){kind=small}
![[garage]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/garage.gif){kind=small}
![[login]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/login.gif){kind=small}
