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TOV Forums > ILX > > Re: 2013 ILX Trim Information.. Just get a Civic Si?

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Midi_Amp
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Re: Acura's marketing shoot itself again!    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2012 23:12
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
Is the ILX hybrid using the 16 valve like in CR-Z or the 8 valve like in the Civic? I missed this information, because if it's using the CR-Z engine then it should provide acceleration similar to a 2.0L engine, per Honda internal testing at least. So I don't see that much commotion over the hybrid... That's if it's using CR-Z 16 valve, if the ILX using Civic hybrid engine, I'm all in with the rotten eggs, pitch forks and torches.



What i have been reading it is the 8 valve carried over from the Civic. Lots of people including me thought it would have the one from the CRZ.

This is why people are so disappointeed in the drive train across the range of ILX. Otherwise it is a very nice design.


Bring on the rotten eggs, pitch forks and torches folks!

I hope the management still thinks over installing the 16 valve IMA over the 8 valve one. I still one want though (the R20 and 5AT is enough for me), I'll be all over the car if it ever comes to my country... Really? Lexus and Infiniti are selling okay here, Acura's smart luxury should cater to developing countries more than the ultra premium Lexus and Infiniti brand positioning. But oh well, Honda management works in a mysterious way, minus the ability to turn water into wine.
FiSH-Chan
Profile for FiSH-Chan
Re: Acura's marketing shoot itself again!    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-18-2012 01:10
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Midi_Amp wrote:
Bring on the rotten eggs, pitch forks and torches folks!

I hope the management still thinks over installing the 16 valve IMA over the 8 valve one. I still one want though (the R20 and 5AT is enough for me), I'll be all over the car if it ever comes to my country... Really? Lexus and Infiniti are selling okay here, Acura's smart luxury should cater to developing countries more than the ultra premium Lexus and Infiniti brand positioning. But oh well, Honda management works in a mysterious way, minus the ability to turn water into wine.




I think at this point in time, they thought it might as well use the Civic's drivetrain until the ED engines come out because there isn't really much point to spend too much time or money trying to redesign and fit an engine that is meant for a CR-z into the ILX. Although I do wish they would make the effort, either that or just wait for a bit and have the ILX launched with the ED tech straight away (although they will have to continualy get beaten up by the press and some people for not showing any 'decent' cars). So I think the problem is timing is all gone off really badly, and I suspect the tsunami and Thailand flooding might have to do with some of it.
eneka
Profile for eneka
Re: 2013 ILX Trim Information    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-18-2012 04:25
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Kool Aid wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
danielgr wrote:

So again, Honda would for sure sell more cars if they offered more variations, but would they make more money or offer better value to their customers? I sure don't think so and keep in mind that you'll also have the TSX 2.4 AT with tech around...)


If I wanted a 6 speed, 2.4 ILX and I don't care for the feel and price of leather (which I don't), Acura is basically saying that I am out of luck, since cloth upholstery is not offered. This is most definitely not a better value to their customer.




and who is making your 'perfect' car? Can you get what you want in any luxury brand? BMW, Merc, Audi, Lexus? Is the Infiniti G25 available in Cloth+6MT?


BMW certainly is. You can customize your car however the you want, and if the standard options and colors aren't enough, you can even go for the BMW Individual Program. When you order your car, you can even track it through their website which shows the current status and you can even track it while it on the ship, very much like a UPS package.
Especially with the new x3 where they advertise a lot on "building" your own car.
Honda's/Acura's marketing company could learn a bit from BMW's




Kool Aid
Profile for Kool Aid
Re: 2013 ILX Trim Information    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-18-2012 06:22
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eneka wrote:
Kool Aid wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
danielgr wrote:

So again, Honda would for sure sell more cars if they offered more variations, but would they make more money or offer better value to their customers? I sure don't think so and keep in mind that you'll also have the TSX 2.4 AT with tech around...)


If I wanted a 6 speed, 2.4 ILX and I don't care for the feel and price of leather (which I don't), Acura is basically saying that I am out of luck, since cloth upholstery is not offered. This is most definitely not a better value to their customer.




and who is making your 'perfect' car? Can you get what you want in any luxury brand? BMW, Merc, Audi, Lexus? Is the Infiniti G25 available in Cloth+6MT?


BMW certainly is. You can customize your car however the you want, and if the standard options and colors aren't enough, you can even go for the BMW Individual Program....
Honda's/Acura's marketing company could learn a bit from BMW's


Really? I didn't think you could get cloth in a BMW? I thought it was either vinyl or leather as an option? Anyway, just how much does all this customization cost? Are they marketing any of their cars in the expected price range of the ILX? I honestly don't understand why so many want to turn Honda/Acura into BMW when BMW already exists for people to buy?

atomiclightbulb
Profile for atomiclightbulb
Re: 2013 ILX Trim Information    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-18-2012 11:06
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Kool Aid wrote:
Anyway, just how much does all this customization cost? Are they marketing any of their cars in the expected price range of the ILX?


Customization isn't cheap, and no, I don't think BMW sells cars in the mid to high 20k range.

A base BMW 328i has a starting MSRP of around 35k. But if you want a metallic paint, add $550. If you want leather seats, add another $1450. If you want a moonroof, add $1050. Want split fold-down seats? Another $475. And this is for the least expensive model sedan!

I honestly don't understand why so many want to turn Honda/Acura into BMW when BMW already exists for people to buy?


My belief is that the community here generally wants vehicles that have the options and handling characteristics of a BMW, but without the associated maintenance headaches (and substantial cost after the 4-year/50k full service plan runs out).

The issue here is that Honda and Acura generally build reliable mass-market cars on shared platforms. What their primary market (the general consumer) demands is value for the money. BMW isn't in the business of offering value -- they're in the business of supplying the latest technology and best handling to a customer base that doesn't care that much about cost or value.
owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Acura's marketing shoot itself again!    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-18-2012 16:46
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TonyE wrote:
Sorry Daniel... but carzak is correct.

The car to go to here is the fully loaded K24/MT6. This means the ILX K24 must also offer Navi, ELS, etc..

The fact that it is not available is STUPID.

Honestly, we were thinking of leasing one next year... that's really off the book now.

JesusChrist... when will AHM's marketing stop shooting itself in the foot?

PS: Indeed the fact that the K24 with AT5SS is not available is also incredibly stupid... A K24/AT5SS Technology Package would be the best selling ILX.



Carzak is absolutely correct. Offering the 6MT without the Navigation/tech package is simply ridiculously stupid. If we were talking just nav, that MIGHT be one thing, but realistically, the tech package has most of the good stuff. The ELS and the integrated functionality of the navigation would have made that car much more desireable, IMO.

Also, it seems like it is a classic case of the chicken or the egg. Does Acura not sell MT's because nobody wants them, or does nobody buy them because Acura doesn't offer them? People can sit and say whatever they want about there only being X examples of a 6MT in the country as proof that nobody wants them, but all that really proves is that there is virtually ZERO supply. A car like the ILX (or even TL-SHAWD 6MT) doesn't have enough market clout to get people to travel to the nearest MT car, which may be 1,000 miles away in order to purchase. They are either going to buy something else, or settle for an auto. Considering the % of cars that Mazda, VW, BMW and Infiniti still sell with MT's, I would hypothesize that Acura is losing MT business to other brands. Roughly 50% of the GLI's I looked at have MT's and that is as DIRECT a competitor to this car as there can possibly be. Upper models of the Mazda 3 also move a fair number of MT's as do cars like the Mini's, low end BMW's etc. The lack of available MT's has been a complaint among a LOT of loyal Honda owners over the past decade. And not just enthusiasts either. I have heard it from people who owned 92HP Civic VX or HX hatchbacks, regular Accords, Civics, Preludes and even CR-V's, not to mention Integras, Legends, Vigors, and TL's. Honda hasn't even attempted to offer a suitable replacement transmission such as a DCT. While I would always prefer a 3 pedal car, I understand that some people do not.

Where I considering buying a car like this, I would have wanted integrated Nav, ELS, all of the other "premium" features, a K24 w/6MT and preferrably the LSD. As it is, I get about half of the features that would have been really important to me in this car. Acura bitches and says "the enthusiasts don't want that," but what they SHOULD be saying is that the "enthusiasts don't want that because we half-assed the package." It would cost them virtually ZERO to make a K24 6MT with tech. Whatever incremental cost would have been there would have been worth it, IMO.

Needless to say, I am glad I purchased my 2009 Si because this is the ONLY car that Honda had in my price range that I was even remotely interested in, and they F'ed it up by half assing the package, yet again. I also was ready to put my money where my mouth was, but Honda didn't earn it in this case. Anecdotally, I don't have to give up the 2 best electronic featues, chassis dynamics, or refinement to get an MT and navigation in a BMW or a GLI, or a fully loaded Mazda 3, and at least for the first 70-100K, there is no additional ownership costs in the case of the VW and BMW. What is the point of a car like this, when I can get something that I don't have to make infernal compromises on? Until Acura figures that out, they are screwed. If they want only 1 trim level to produce, that would be fine but they need to err on the side of content, rather than the side of cheap. I don't want an ILX because it is cheap. That is what the Si is apparently. I want the ILX because it has the good fundamentals of the Si in a package that is less negatively perceived with a lot more content. Acura has failed to deliver that here. I would have foregone the LSD in lieu of navigation/ELS. I had even decided that would be a likely scenario. I would have considered foregoing the ELS/Nav if the chassis made no compromises, but here I have to get D) None of the above. Not acceptable, IMO.

But don't worry Daniel, while people like me are not buying them (either keeping what we have or going elsewhere), people like you can sit in your smug little world telling us how Honda doesn't offer it because buyers don't want it, when the reality is that other companies that DO offer it are stealing Honda's customers. 10 years ago, I would have jumped at the chance to own a much nicer MT Acura over an Si. But I could get a car that more resembled what it should be too. Now, I couldn't even test drive a manual Acura because they simply can't be found. I would buy one in a heartbeat, if I could find one without having to travel 500+ miles, or do a dealer trade which costs me extra money.
Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Acura's marketing shoot itself again!    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-18-2012 19:31
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I wouldn't suggest Honda follow Mazda's lead on developing cars for the US market.

http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/15/10686684-some-of-the-zoom-zoom-may-have-gone-out-of-mazda

I've shopped Mini Coopers. Yes, manual shifts are available but so are the option list problems common with BMWs. You can always order a car and wait the couple of months it takes to get the car you want. BMW learned well from Porsche.

Finally, no additional ownership costs for the BMW owner during the first 70k to 100k miles? A 5-series owner I know just replaced the run flats on his car for the third time in less than 40k miles. No thanks.
eneka
Profile for eneka
Re: 2013 ILX Trim Information    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-18-2012 20:30
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Kool Aid wrote:
Really? I didn't think you could get cloth in a BMW? I thought it was either vinyl or leather as an option? Anyway, just how much does all this customization cost? Are they marketing any of their cars in the expected price range of the ILX? I honestly don't understand why so many want to turn Honda/Acura into BMW when BMW already exists for people to buy?


you actually can either "regular cloth" or alcantra, BMW's in the US usually come with leatherette (vinyl) with leather as an extra cost (like everything else)

atomiclightbulb wrote:
Kool Aid wrote:
I honestly don't understand why so many want to turn Honda/Acura into BMW when BMW already exists for people to buy?


My belief is that the community here generally wants vehicles that have the options and handling characteristics of a BMW, but without the associated maintenance headaches (and substantial cost after the 4-year/50k full service plan runs out).

The issue here is that Honda and Acura generally build reliable mass-market cars on shared platforms. What their primary market (the general consumer) demands is value for the money. BMW isn't in the business of offering value -- they're in the business of supplying the latest technology and best handling to a customer base that doesn't care that much about cost or value.

I personally think it's because these two companies are so similar yet so different at the same time. Fun to drive cars, high revving engines, large enthusiast and loyal customer base, etc



Kool Aid
Profile for Kool Aid
Re: 2013 ILX Trim Information    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-18-2012 20:57
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eneka wrote:
Kool Aid wrote:
Really? I didn't think you could get cloth in a BMW? I thought it was either vinyl or leather as an option? Anyway, just how much does all this customization cost? Are they marketing any of their cars in the expected price range of the ILX? I honestly don't understand why so many want to turn Honda/Acura into BMW when BMW already exists for people to buy?


you actually can either "regular cloth" or alcantra, BMW's in the US usually come with leatherette (vinyl) with leather as an extra cost (like everything else)

I guess US BMW dealers only bring in the vinyl seat models then cause I've never seen any with alcantera. However, while alcantera may breath better than vinyl, IMO, 'regular' cloth is still more comfortable.
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Acura's marketing shoot itself again!    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-18-2012 21:43
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
Bring on the rotten eggs, pitch forks and torches folks!

I hope the management still thinks over installing the 16 valve IMA over the 8 valve one. I still one want though (the R20 and 5AT is enough for me), I'll be all over the car if it ever comes to my country... Really? Lexus and Infiniti are selling okay here, Acura's smart luxury should cater to developing countries more than the ultra premium Lexus and Infiniti brand positioning. But oh well, Honda management works in a mysterious way, minus the ability to turn water into wine.




I think at this point in time, they thought it might as well use the Civic's drivetrain until the ED engines come out because there isn't really much point to spend too much time or money trying to redesign and fit an engine that is meant for a CR-z into the ILX. Although I do wish they would make the effort, either that or just wait for a bit and have the ILX launched with the ED tech straight away (although they will have to continualy get beaten up by the press and some people for not showing any 'decent' cars). So I think the problem is timing is all gone off really badly, and I suspect the tsunami and Thailand flooding might have to do with some of it.



The issue is that the K24 with AT5SS is already in the TSX... and for a performance car I think the K engine with dual DOHC is still better.

Besides, the hybrid ILX simply makes no damn sense to me. Not at all. The ILX should the the luxo Civic and it ought to come with but three engines, 160bhp (MT5/AT5), 200 bhp (AT5SS) and 220 bhp (K22/MT6/LSD).

AHM really needs to pull back from being so damn timid and cheap. They over reacted to the credit crisis three years ago and now we see the end result.

And the Acura marketing team needs to be FIRED!

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Acura's marketing shoot itself again!    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-18-2012 22:04
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TonyE wrote:
[IBesides, the hybrid ILX simply makes no damn sense to me. Not at all. The ILX should the the luxo Civic and it ought to come with but three engines, 160bhp (MT5/AT5), 200 bhp (AT5SS) and 220 bhp (K22/MT6/LSD).

AHM really needs to pull back from being so damn timid and cheap. They over reacted to the credit crisis three years ago and now we see the end result.

And the Acura marketing team needs to be FIRED!



It seems like using the IMA out of the Civic in the ILX gave Acura an easy entry into the hybrid sweepstakes!
Kool Aid
Profile for Kool Aid
Re: Acura's marketing shoot itself again!    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-18-2012 23:01
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owequitit wrote:
Offering the 6MT without the Navigation/tech package is simply ridiculously stupid. If we were talking just nav, that MIGHT be one thing, but realistically, the tech package has most of the good stuff....

...If they want only 1 trim level to produce, that would be fine but they need to err on the side of content, rather than the side of cheap...

...I would buy one in a heartbeat, if I could find one without having to travel 500+ miles, or do a dealer trade which costs me extra money.


Owe, it's an impossible task to please everyone, but I fear they may end up pleasing fewer than they had hoped. Look at the 'factory navi' debate in this thread alone.

Had they err'd on the side of content, the 'anti-navi' would have said "I would have bought the ILX but they force me to take Navi if I want the 6MT"

if they leave it out, we have your argument.

Offer two versions of ILX 6MT and we have your second argument that it's not available cause there isn't enough demand or supply (whichever side you choose to believe in).

Personally, I would have dropped the cloth versions in favor of two other trims. Maybe a 6MT Tech or maybe 2.4+Auto. However, I'd concede that this probably doesn't help get the price down. Maybe as Tony suggested, a manual version of the 2.0?

In the end, nobody here would be happy with whatever path they chose.
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Acura's marketing shoot itself again!    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-19-2012 00:24
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Kool Aid wrote:
owequitit wrote:
Offering the 6MT without the Navigation/tech package is simply ridiculously stupid. If we were talking just nav, that MIGHT be one thing, but realistically, the tech package has most of the good stuff....

...If they want only 1 trim level to produce, that would be fine but they need to err on the side of content, rather than the side of cheap...

...I would buy one in a heartbeat, if I could find one without having to travel 500+ miles, or do a dealer trade which costs me extra money.


Owe, it's an impossible task to please everyone, but I fear they may end up pleasing fewer than they had hoped. Look at the 'factory navi' debate in this thread alone.

Had they err'd on the side of content, the 'anti-navi' would have said "I would have bought the ILX but they force me to take Navi if I want the 6MT"

if they leave it out, we have your argument.

Offer two versions of ILX 6MT and we have your second argument that it's not available cause there isn't enough demand or supply (whichever side you choose to believe in).

Personally, I would have dropped the cloth versions in favor of two other trims. Maybe a 6MT Tech or maybe 2.4+Auto. However, I'd concede that this probably doesn't help get the price down. Maybe as Tony suggested, a manual version of the 2.0?

In the end, nobody here would be happy with whatever path they chose.



I think the issue here is that we're discussing an ACURA not a HONDA.

I can see why AHM might want to keep HONDA cars reasonably priced but this premise fails miserably when you're discussing the up market brand.

Acura need to realize that it does not exist to compete with Honda but with Lexus, Infinity and Audi... Volvo and Saab are gone. BMW and Benz are on their own status so let Lexus go after them.

Acura needs to make its cars upmarket, that's why an Acura that competes against a Mazda makes absolutely no sense.. since it also competes against the Civic.

Screw "Advance". screw "whatever crap our marketing is pulling out of their asses as any one time...". screw "luxury on a budget"... Just go for it, you lame ass turds.

Load the damn ILX with leather, with a top notch powertrain, with ELS, with NAVI... don't offer without it... that's for the Civic. If someone bitches about it.. hell, then then they can get a Civic...

Maybe bring back an ILX Type R... but, hey, put leather Recaros, put NAVI, put the rear window wiper, put ELS.. remember the fiasco with the '97 ITRs, remember how the '99 ITR fixed all of that?

Then charge for those cars. Build the brand equity.

No one thought I was driving a Civic when I had my Integras or my RSX-S.

No one thought I was driving an Accord when I had my Vigor or series of TLs.

What AHM MUST DO is to keep Acura up market, then make put the 500 bucks back into the Civic and start building Fits and its variants like crazy in Mexico and the US

..And, unless you can make an ILX hybrid that offers 30% more power than the Civic hybrid... then FORGET IT.


NealX
Profile for NealX
Re: Acura's marketing shoot itself again!    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-19-2012 10:44
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^ Best Post of the Month Award!
A77
Profile for A77
Re: Acura's marketing shoot itself again!    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-19-2012 15:32
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Yep, this is all so true and obvious - I would love to see someone in Acura/Honda defending their position, as to me it is indefensible. The only case for not having a wider choice of ILX's is to in some way perversely protect to the TSX. And once the TSX goes to then widen the range of ILXs. By which time it is too late, as all the press complaints will be firmly cemented into the mindset. Acura needs to move up market and come up with genuinely exciting/attractive vehicles (NSX is a start) and stop decontenting Hondas - make the Civic the best car in its class, not the cheapest, and if they want something cheap then bring in the City alongside the Fit and build tons of them cheap in China and Mexico.
Rgist85
Profile for Rgist85
Re: Acura's marketing shoot itself again!    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-19-2012 15:48
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A77 wrote:
Yep, this is all so true and obvious - I would love to see someone in Acura/Honda defending their position, as to me it is indefensible. The only case for not having a wider choice of ILX's is to in some way perversely protect to the TSX. And once the TSX goes to then widen the range of ILXs. By which time it is too late, as all the press complaints will be firmly cemented into the mindset. Acura needs to move up market and come up with genuinely exciting/attractive vehicles (NSX is a start) and stop decontenting Hondas - make the Civic the best car in its class, not the cheapest, and if they want something cheap then bring in the City alongs
ide the Fit and build tons of them cheap in China and Mexico.




I have to consign on the last couple of post here...just looking at the leaked spec/feature sheet on the ILX it seems like content that should be offered on the Civic considering how much better equipped compact sedans/coupes are starting to become. The fact that HIDs, 17s, XM, auto dimming mirror and other features are not standard on the ILX is a bit surprising to me....the 2.4 ILX seems like nothing more than an Si with better styling and a leather pkg, that doesn't seem like enough to me. I'd like to see Acura actually compete with the pack, I'd like to see Hondas that are better equipped but as long as Honda keeps neutering Acura, all of the cars will feel under equipped and Hondas will feel cheap relative to their competitors and they'll lack equipment which is a shame IMO.
Jesse
Profile for Jesse
Re: Acura's marketing shoot itself again!    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-19-2012 18:20
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I.Love.You.TonyE.

I absolutely agree with him and he couldn't have said it better. Acura has the potential to be an awesome luxury automobile company... but IMO, if Acura is still on the same ground (limbo), might as well kill the brand and change its products to Honda. It just hurts to see them stuck in mediocrity.
NoSpinZone
Profile for NoSpinZone
Re: Acura's marketing shoot itself again!    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-19-2012 19:36
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Tony,

For all Acura's failings, your RSX-S was the last Acura (until the ILX, maybe) that would ever be confused for a Civic or a Honda. The interior on those things is quite immature, and they were loud, high-revving quasi-economy cars... how is that the bar to set if you want Acura to be "upscale." Like it or not, Acura moved a bit upmarket with the debut of SH-AWD, the deletion of the RSX, and the establishment of the "beak" design language. Were their cars better? That's arguable, but I'd hardly say that an Integra/RSX was ever all-that "up market"... and looking at the Integras today... yeah they sure look like they could be Civics, IMO.

The ILX appears to be a bit of a joke, but the Earth Dreams, to me, appears to have classic Honda written all over it. Honda never was competitive with V-8 RWD. I don't think they should start now. I think Earth Dreams appears to be an excellent way to push hybrid technology forward, and that's the meat of Honda's plan with Acura, so I'm not all that concerned about the ILX.
owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Acura's marketing shoot itself again!    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-19-2012 23:17
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Grace141 wrote:
I wouldn't suggest Honda follow Mazda's lead on developing cars for the US market.

http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/15/10686684-some-of-the-zoom-zoom-may-have-gone-out-of-mazda

I've shopped Mini Coopers. Yes, manual shifts are available but so are the option list problems common with BMWs. You can always order a car and wait the couple of months it takes to get the car you want. BMW learned well from Porsche.

Finally, no additional ownership costs for the BMW owner during the first 70k to 100k miles? A 5-series owner I know just replaced the run flats on his car for the third time in less than 40k miles. No thanks.



First, let's get the issue of Mazda's poor performance out of the way. They are not doing poorly because they have relatively enthusiast focused cars available. They are doing poorly because they import everything from Japan, and the exchange rates are killing them. This is something that doesn't affect Honda or Toyota to the same degree. That said, Subaru also has a relatively "sporty" lineup, and they are doing well.

Second, I didn't say they needed to do things exactly the same way as BMW or Mini. That is a strawman. What I did say was that other competitors manage to make it so that I can get everything in what SHOULD be a top shelf model. For Acura to not offer Navigation and ELS with a 6MT is just stupid. The enthusiasts are specifically more likely to want to the whole package. The fact that they appear to be yanking the LSD makes it even worse, because now I have a car that has a major dynamic shortcoming compared to the Si, and has several big features missing when compared to that same car. I.E. it is compromised from an enthusiast standpoint.

Third, Acura's can have problems with tires as well. I know many BMW owners with run flats, and other German brand owners with run-flats that have had no issues. So to say that a friend with run flats that are having premature problems (especially when lacking the background info) makes the comment about Acura absurd. Further more, Acura's have routine maintenance costs. BMW's don't. That helps to at least partially offset the cost of whatever those premature tire failures cost.
TonyEX
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Re: Acura's marketing shoot itself again!    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-19-2012 23:42
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NoSpinZone wrote:
Tony,

For all Acura's failings, your RSX-S was the last Acura (until the ILX, maybe) that would ever be confused for a Civic or a Honda. The interior on those things is quite immature, and they were loud, high-revving quasi-economy cars... how is that the bar to set if you want Acura to be "upscale." Like it or not, Acura moved a bit upmarket with the debut of SH-AWD, the deletion of the RSX, and the establishment of the "beak" design language. Were their cars better? That's arguable, but I'd hardly say that an Integra/RSX was ever all-that "up market"... and looking at the Integras today... yeah they sure look like they could be Civics, IMO.

The ILX appears to be a bit of a joke, but the Earth Dreams, to me, appears to have classic Honda written all over it. Honda never was competitive with V-8 RWD. I don't think they should start now. I think Earth Dreams appears to be an excellent way to push hybrid technology forward, and that's the meat of Honda's plan with Acura, so I'm not all that concerned about the ILX.




We've owned an 86 1/2 Integra LS MT5, 90 Integra GS, 94 GSR and 03 RSX-S. Along the way we've owned a 77 CVCC, 84 Civic S, 89 Civic CRX Si, 90 Civic Si, 99 Civic LX and 03 Civic Si.

We almost got a 99 Civic Si but we got the Prelude SH instead.

All of those Integras/RSX-S had internal/external/powertrain/suspension/wheels/tires stuff that completely outshone the Civic.

The RSX-X in particular was loaded. It had the backup mirrors, auto temp, power everything, a wonderful engine, a rifle bolt shifter, etc... the only thing it needed was better tires.

No, the Integras and RSX were NEVER confused with a Civic.

Not from the outside.
Not from the inside.
Not once under way.

The ILX is '12 Civic Mistake Part II. Watch for my post tomorrow in the General Section Forum.



Ganplosive
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Re: 2013 ILX Trim Information    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2012 03:20
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pezones wrote:
more punishment for the enthusiast –
the only model I would want would be the the 2.4 6 speed, and I wouldn’t want it without nav or els.



this. This is truth!
Ganplosive
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Re: Acura's marketing shoot itself again!    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2012 03:31
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TonyE wrote:
Kool Aid wrote:
owequitit wrote:
Offering the 6MT without the Navigation/tech package is simply ridiculously stupid. If we were talking just nav, that MIGHT be one thing, but realistically, the tech package has most of the good stuff....

...If they want only 1 trim level to produce, that would be fine but they need to err on the side of content, rather than the side of cheap...

...I would buy one in a heartbeat, if I could find one without having to travel 500+ miles, or do a dealer trade which costs me extra money.


Owe, it's an impossible task to please everyone, but I fear they may end up pleasing fewer than they had hoped. Look at the 'factory navi' debate in this thread alone.

Had they err'd on the side of content, the 'anti-navi' would have said "I would have bought the ILX but they force me to take Navi if I want the 6MT"

if they leave it out, we have your argument.

Offer two versions of ILX 6MT and we have your second argument that it's not available cause there isn't enough demand or supply (whichever side you choose to believe in).

Personally, I would have dropped the cloth versions in favor of two other trims. Maybe a 6MT Tech or maybe 2.4+Auto. However, I'd concede that this probably doesn't help get the price down. Maybe as Tony suggested, a manual version of the 2.0?

In the end, nobody here would be happy with whatever path they chose.



I think the issue here is that we're discussing an ACURA not a HONDA.

I can see why AHM might want to keep HONDA cars reasonably priced but this premise fails miserably when you're discussing the up market brand.

Acura need to realize that it does not exist to compete with Honda but with Lexus, Infinity and Audi... Volvo and Saab are gone. BMW and Benz are on their own status so let Lexus go after them.

Acura needs to make its cars upmarket, that's why an Acura that competes against a Mazda makes absolutely no sense.. since it also competes against the Civic.

Screw "Advance". screw "whatever crap our marketing is pulling out of their asses as any one time...". screw "luxury on a budget"... Just go for it, you lame ass turds.

Load the damn ILX with leather, with a top notch powertrain, with ELS, with NAVI... don't offer without it... that's for the Civic. If someone bitches about it.. hell, then then they can get a Civic...

Maybe bring back an ILX Type R... but, hey, put leather Recaros, put NAVI, put the rear window wiper, put ELS.. remember the fiasco with the '97 ITRs, remember how the '99 ITR fixed all of that?

Then charge for those cars. Build the brand equity.

No one thought I was driving a Civic when I had my Integras or my RSX-S.

No one thought I was driving an Accord when I had my Vigor or series of TLs.

What AHM MUST DO is to keep Acura up market, then make put the 500 bucks back into the Civic and start building Fits and its variants like crazy in Mexico and the US

..And, unless you can make an ILX hybrid that offers 30% more power than the Civic hybrid... then FORGET IT.





CAN I GET A AMEN?
DrWhiner
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Re: Acura's marketing shoot itself again!    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-20-2012 23:23
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Well, I don't think Mazda imports EVERy vehicle into the U.S.

Remember the Mazda6 from AAI?

Iam not surprised that low production volume of MAzda vehicles in AAI is helping to bleed the company dry.

Is MAzda really help by its investment in rotary engine and RX vehicles? Yes, these add character to the brand but how many Mazda6 (should be the bread and butter in the important U.s. market) are sold because of the existence of RX?
DrWhiner
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Re: Acura's marketing shoot itself again!    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-21-2012 04:23
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Anyone notice the changes to '12 TSX w/ 6MT?

Tech pkg?

NAVI?

ELS?

Nope. Nada. No.

It's official: Acura was so overwhelm by the demand of its well-equipped 6MT TSX in the last couple of years that, in order to maintain its sales emphasis to 'non-enthusiasts', it decided remove such options.

end sarcasm/
DrWhiner
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Re: Acura's marketing shoot itself again!    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2012 02:20
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If anything is being spared Mazda’s budget-cutting knife, it’s the marketing department which is heavily advertising the new technology.
Powered by Honda
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Re: Acura's marketing shoot itself again!    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2012 22:44
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DrWhiner wrote:
Anyone notice the changes to '12 TSX w/ 6MT?

Tech pkg?

NAVI?

ELS?

Nope. Nada. No.

It's official: Acura was so overwhelm by the demand of its well-equipped 6MT TSX in the last couple of years that, in order to maintain its sales emphasis to 'non-enthusiasts', it decided remove such options.

end sarcasm/



I noticed this awhile back as I couldn't get the MMC TSX 6MT with the features I wanted. SAD. :(
Ganplosive
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Re: Acura's marketing shoot itself again!    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-27-2012 07:03
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is there a reason why Acura thinks Tech + Manual cannot go together? is this some sorta FREEWAY SAFETY JEDI MIND TRICK?
Kool Aid
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2013 ILX Trim Information    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-28-2012 00:04
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Ganplosive wrote:
is there a reason why Acura thinks Tech + Manual cannot go together? is this some sorta FREEWAY SAFETY JEDI MIND TRICK?

More likely it's the simple expedient that if you're making 40,000 a year, and the manual take rate is 10% then it's only 4000 manuals (divided by 12 months and then divided again by 260 dealers). If the take rate is 5%, its 2000 cars. If they added another trim it's now divided by two (though you'll likely gain a few that might have been lost without the extra trim, but volume wouldn't double). IMO, it's just too little volume for two trims which is why they might have considered making manuals only with Navi. But you'd have to admit, it would generate another round of grumbling.
TonyEX
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Re: 2013 ILX Trim Information.. Just get a Civic Si?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2012 13:16
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Kool Aid wrote:
Ganplosive wrote:
is there a reason why Acura thinks Tech + Manual cannot go together? is this some sorta FREEWAY SAFETY JEDI MIND TRICK?

More likely it's the simple expedient that if you're making 40,000 a year, and the manual take rate is 10% then it's only 4000 manuals (divided by 12 months and then divided again by 260 dealers). If the take rate is 5%, its 2000 cars. If they added another trim it's now divided by two (though you'll likely gain a few that might have been lost without the extra trim, but volume wouldn't double). IMO, it's just too little volume for two trims which is why they might have considered making manuals only with Navi. But you'd have to admit, it would generate another round of grumbling.



Au contraire... the K24/MT6 should be considered the TOP car, hence it should be come only with the fully loaded package.

Otherwise, let's face it, the Civic Si is the much better deal because you can get the Navi and just about all the toys.
Kool Aid
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Re: 2013 ILX Trim Information.. Just get a Civic Si?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2012 15:15
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TonyE wrote:
Kool Aid wrote:
Ganplosive wrote:
is there a reason why Acura thinks Tech + Manual cannot go together? is this some sorta FREEWAY SAFETY JEDI MIND TRICK?

More likely it's the simple expedient that if you're making 40,000 a year, and the manual take rate is 10% then it's only 4000 manuals (divided by 12 months and then divided again by 260 dealers). If the take rate is 5%, its 2000 cars. If they added another trim it's now divided by two (though you'll likely gain a few that might have been lost without the extra trim, but volume wouldn't double). IMO, it's just too little volume for two trims which is why they might have considered making manuals only with Navi. But you'd have to admit, it would generate another round of grumbling.



Au contraire... the K24/MT6 should be considered the TOP car, hence it should be come only with the fully loaded package.

Otherwise, let's face it, the Civic Si is the much better deal because you can get the Navi and just about all the toys.


Tony, not trying to pass judgement on which of the two trims the K24+6MT should be (personally I think it should have had Navi). I'm only saying that it makes sense to only make one version considering the take rate on MTs these days.

Some people just don't want to be in a Civic and will pay more NOT to have one. Isn't that the whole premise of an upscale brand? IMO, it's not supposed to be a better value relative to the Civic, it's supposed to be a better value relative to a loaded A3, CT or IS250. Not saying it's perfect, but its far from the disaster the worse on TOV make it out to be.
 
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