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JeffX
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Reuters: Insight: After Civic bruising, Honda fights for its soul
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FiSH-Chan
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Just want to note that the CR review is still the only review around the internet I've been reading that says the Civic has a 'choppy ride', everything else says it rides fine.
...?
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FiSH-Chan
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...or even too soft. but definitely not choppy?
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dampflok
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Like the saying goes, the first step to recovery is acknowledging that you have a problem.
As for this: "[T]he battle for Honda's automotive soul is being played out in places like Asahi and Minami's sprawling third-floor studio in the Tokyo suburb of Wako. If the upscale Aoyama neighborhood that houses Honda's headquarters can be likened to New York's Fifth Avenue, then Wako would be a dreary town in New Jersey."
Hey, what's wrong with New Jersey? :-)
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superchg2
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Hopefully these guys can shake things up at Honda!
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dampflok
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I find the closing of the article the most encouraging part:
For Asahi and Minami, the pressure is on. They must ensure the next generation of Honda vehicles wow consumers. "What we need to do is to raise the quality of the output by such a high margin that it will shut everybody up," said Asahi.
To that end they have already sent numerous projects back to the drawing board, they said. "The tension when we did that -- it was like all the air was being sucked out of the room," Minami said. "But that is our job."
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FiSH-Chan
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dampflok wrote:
I find the closing of the article the most encouraging part:
For Asahi and Minami, the pressure is on. They must ensure the next generation of Honda vehicles wow consumers. "What we need to do is to raise the quality of the output by such a high margin that it will shut everybody up," said Asahi.
To that end they have already sent numerous projects back to the drawing board, they said. "The tension when we did that -- it was like all the air was being sucked out of the room," Minami said. "But that is our job."
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I wonder if they've already been around for the ILX and the NSX concept.
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atomiclightbulb
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I found this part most "insightful":
During his reign, engineers lived in fear of Soichiro Honda's surprise visits, which typically ended in deafening rants against mediocrity that earned him the moniker "Mr Thunder."
He retired in 1983 and died nine years later. Many outside Honda say the company could really benefit from the aggressive drive he championed.
"Soichiro Honda was definitely the opposite of a bean counter; he was like the automotive Steve Jobs," said Bob Lutz, a former GM vice-chairman and one of the industry's best-known "car guys," referring to Apple's late visionary leader. |
I said the same god damn thing in this thread:
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1001261
"I also think Honda could learn a thing or two from Apple -- a company that builds products to a very high standard"
Honda usually built products to a very high standard up until about 2006/7. In those model years, we got the 8G Civic, which trounced the competition, and the 3G CR-V and 2G MDX, both of which were/are top sellers even at the very end of their product cycle.
The string of products that followed were just disappointments:
8G Accord - too big, confusing looking controls, outdated electronics.
2G TSX - Numb steering, not as nimble or fun as the 1G
4G TL - Worst power plenum, garish styling, also huge and not as good in steering
2G Insight - Mediocre hybrid not suited to North America
Crosstour - WTF exterior, gigantic and utterly ridiculous
ZDX - Form over Function
Luckily the tide is turning. Civic was questionable but it is selling well, though as Jeff points out there seem to be lots of incentives.
Odyssey is a good design. CR-V is clever and has nice interior. Earth Dreams shows that Honda will advance its engine technology in production models very soon. The RDX and ILX show commitment to getting exterior design right again.
Honda could have gone off the deep end, but I think they will make things right. If 2011 was rock bottom, with the Tsunami and Civic criticism, they will be ok. Lots of companies that were in trouble would like to have been in Honda's shoes -- Honda is still selling a lot of good products.
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dampflok
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
I wonder if they've already been around for the ILX and the NSX concept. |
It looks like they weren't appointed early enough to have been able to green- or red-light either project.
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Grace141
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Mendel acknowledges Honda cut costs on the Civic interior because it believed back in 2008 that consumers would want a cheaper small car at a time when the economy was sliding into a deep recession.
More than three years on we still have high unemployment, massive Federal debt, and rising gasoline prices here in the US. Honda did exactly what I would have done in 2008.
I think this dueling red-lighters approach to product development is an okay idea provided neither is a J. Mays disciple. Snarky comments about not liking to be told what to do aside, sometimes the guys who believe they're the smartest in the room simply don't realize how dumb they are.
Speaking of Bob Lutz, the last I had heard was he was back at GM for a few days. I wonder if he likes Japanese food?
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6SPDTL
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I think the choppy ride issue was with the bare bones lx, the exl I drove very smooth, in fact the ride quality was excellent. In honda tradition the lx probably has the cheapest tires they could find. The shitty interior and neon exterior are undeniable.
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atomiclightbulb
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Grace141 wrote:
Mendel acknowledges Honda cut costs on the Civic interior because it believed back in 2008 that consumers would want a cheaper small car at a time when the economy was sliding into a deep recession.
More than three years on we still have high unemployment, massive Federal debt, and rising gasoline prices here in the US. Honda did exactly what I would have done in 2008. |
I believe Honda made a logical choice with materials, but they should have designed the interior a bit differently.
The upper dashboard has too many disjointed plastic pieces. It lacks elegance. I believe one forum member here (I can't remember who exactly) said it was uneasy to look at, and nausea inducing. There are not enough storage spaces. If Honda felt it was necessary to use cheaper materials, so be it, but they should never sacrifice elegance of design and practicality too. To me, this is where the 9G fails, as I noted in my test drive review in the Civic forum. The headliner and carpet are minor or nearly irrelevant issues by comparison.
Fortunately none of Honda's other recent vehicles show this lack of careful design. The new models of CR-V, ILX, and RDX all have pleasant looking dash controls. CR-V has nice storage spaces, and ILX even has a center cubby.
6SPDTL wrote:
I think the choppy ride issue was with the bare bones lx, the exl I drove very smooth, in fact the ride quality was excellent. In honda tradition the lx probably has the cheapest tires they could find. The shitty interior and neon exterior are undeniable.
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That's pretty much it.
If you look on tirerack.com at the Original Equipment tires specified for the 9G LX, you'll find that they are cheap Low Rolling Resistance passenger tires from Firestone. These are optimized for fuel economy and not ride quality. The rubber compound is probably very hard and not compliant. With this kind of tire the LX gets real world highway FE of 47 MPG (by Consumer Reports' test).
I've driven the 9G EX and it is very smooth, with superior ride quality IMO. No surprise. It wears mid-range Continental ContiProContact Grand Touring tires, which get very favorable ratings for OE tires on Tirerrack. FE is not as good with these tires. I believe Consumer reports only got 43 MPG on the EX, which is still an incredible 4 MPG higher than the EPA rating.
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TonyEX
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dampflok wrote:
Like the saying goes, the first step to recovery is acknowledging that you have a problem.
As for this: "[T]he battle for Honda's automotive soul is being played out in places like Asahi and Minami's sprawling third-floor studio in the Tokyo suburb of Wako. If the upscale Aoyama neighborhood that houses Honda's headquarters can be likened to New York's Fifth Avenue, then Wako would be a dreary town in New Jersey."
Hey, what's wrong with New Jersey? :-)
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Dude, NOTHING..... (except for those ugly chemical plants facing NYC when you take off from Newark's airport).
The place is a gastronomical heaven... One of the best dinners I ever had was in Hoboken... at a Mafia owned fish restaurant that merged Las Vegas with Miami Vice... but offered some of the best italian fish plates and big ass, serious martinis I've ever had the pleasure of tasting. If you like REAL Italian food, NJ is DA PLACE, paisano..
Don't even get me started with the Portuguese, Brazilian, Galician and Jewish food. I almost kissed the waiter when he brought up my plate of "Pulpo de Feria".... It'd been like 30 years since I had that dish.
In LA you eat Mexican/Asian/fusion.... BUT in New Jersey.. OMG... California Pizza Kitchen need NOT apply. ;-)
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FiSH-Chan
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6SPDTL wrote:
I think the choppy ride issue was with the bare bones lx, the exl I drove very smooth, in fact the ride quality was excellent. In honda tradition the lx probably has the cheapest tires they could find. |
Well, didn't they point out the choppy ride in the EX or was it EXL and not recommend it as well? And also the hybrid. I remember one review of the hybrid praising the ride quality. Which is my point, almost other reviews have said even the hybrid ride pretty well, CR is the only review I heard from that is consistently saying the ride is poor.
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Fan Koni
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Honda's creative duo now have a direct line to Chief Executive Takanobu Ito. Frustrated with the pace of decision-making at Honda, Ito has put himself in charge of Honda's car operations, splitting the core of the company into three units headed by engineers: the Acura premium brand, mid-sized vehicles and small cars.
Wow. I didn't hear of this before.
I wonder where the split is between small & mid-sized.
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HondaJet
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At the Detroit Auto Show NSX intro, I noticed Ito's fists were bandaged. I wonder if Ito got the Honda spirit and cobbled somebody. I would imagine Soichiro striking whoever was responsible for the gradual slide.
Time to shut everybody up, including my pet favorite, Formula One.
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FiSH-Chan
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HondaJet wrote:
At the Detroit Auto Show NSX intro, I noticed Ito's fists were bandaged. I wonder if Ito got the Honda spirit and cobbled somebody. I would imagine Soichiro striking whoever was responsible for the gradual slide. |
I didn't notice the bandage. But ifg it is a bandage I imagine it probably has to do with him not happy with the engine choice in the ILX before launch?
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TR
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Great article and good for Honda for acknowledging mistakes and actually fixing them. I have little doubt that the next Civic will be as big of a hit as 8th Gen.
Regarding cheap interior, I have absolutely no clue where Honda got the idea that customers want to save money on interior. I have never met a single person who would want to pay less money for cheap materials. The price difference spread over the loan length would be so insignificant that no one would even notice. You want cheap interior, buy a lower model.
Snap out of it Honda!..... I think you already did.
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kirk
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Preferences matter as well. I love a choppy ride. I feel connected in my HFP suspension and summer tires.
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cforez
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http://finance.yahoo.com/q/co?s=HMC+Competitors
I think the revenue, gross margin, EBITDA, and net income numbers paint a pretty good picture of what happened last year. Nissan was relatively unscathed by natural events last year. Honda had a horrible year being affected by both the Japan earthquake/tsunami and the Thai floods (compare revenue and EBITDA), but managed to be in the same ballpark as Toyota and Nissan in net income. How did they do it? Gross margin. Which explains the cost cutting in cars like the Civic.
Now that production is going again and the cash is starting to roll in, you can see that Honda is upping the content again, as seen in the new CR-V, possible early Civic MMC, and green-lighting cars like the NSX.
Honda hasn't really lost it's soul, they're just following the rule of holes- if you find yourself in one, stop digging.
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CR-V9
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Is this really OK with you? Mr. Ito is still leading the company.
You could phrase a revolution in any way you wanted but ... it's the same guy on the top. Just say'in.
(I think the next Accord would look like the FCX Clarity.)
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longhorn
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Finally an article that could have been written by a long time TOVer. We knew something something was not quite right. Its like they had their foot on accelerator through the 80s and 90s, and then when 2000s came they took their foot off and started coasting. Good to have SOMEONE in Honda have a little attittude.
"What we need to do is to raise the quality of the output by such a high margin that it will shut everybody up," said Asahi.
If this website would let me, that would be my avatar.
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DCR
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I test drove a WRX a couple of days ago, so hopefully this talk turns into something real before my color and desired trim show up in the dealer matchmaker network.
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CB77
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(A correction to Mr. Honda's retirement age)
Mr. Honda energized the whole company, even at his advanced age. Yes, he retired in 1973...but he retained the title of "Supreme Advisor" until his death in 1991. And I can assure you, he was still a commanding presence until the very end. If you don't, or haven't, worked for Honda, you cannot fully understand this.
He provided the inspiration and drive for the engineers...and the strong $ against the yen allowed us to sell those marvelous vehicles at a very attractive price. This truly allowed us to build up to a standard, not down to a price.
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HONDA AFVM
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"In the past, Honda designers didn't need permission to veer off script. They often banded together to work in secret on an alternative version of a car when unhappy with the approved blueprint. Going "behind the screen," as it was called, often had the tacit backing of managers who felt it upheld the spirit of Soichiro Honda."
Remember those "insiders" I always talk about......The above is what I was talking about, the guys and gals that took it to the next level, pushed the envelope..............What is left of them and their spirit is pushing from with in and these 2 guys they are talking about sound like the innovators of these "insiders"
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Jovian8
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longhorn you are so right about the timeline.
Coasting for the past 12 years... and it will take at least one model cycle to fix things. Wow ... it will be approaching 20 years in the wilderness.
Using strong language like 'shut them up'...
perhaps there is hope after all! ;-)
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HONDA AFVM
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dampflok wrote:
Like the saying goes, the first step to recovery is acknowledging that you have a problem.
As for this: "[T]he battle for Honda's automotive soul is being played out in places like Asahi and Minami's sprawling third-floor studio in the Tokyo suburb of Wako. If the upscale Aoyama neighborhood that houses Honda's headquarters can be likened to New York's Fifth Avenue, then Wako would be a dreary town in New Jersey."
Hey, what's wrong with New Jersey? :-)
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I LOVE Jersey, lived there in Cherry Hill for 3 years.........LBI, Ocean City, Sea Isl, Toms River.......Beautiful places.
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HONDA AFVM
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TonyE wrote:
dampflok wrote:
Like the saying goes, the first step to recovery is acknowledging that you have a problem.
As for this: "[T]he battle for Honda's automotive soul is being played out in places like Asahi and Minami's sprawling third-floor studio in the Tokyo suburb of Wako. If the upscale Aoyama neighborhood that houses Honda's headquarters can be likened to New York's Fifth Avenue, then Wako would be a dreary town in New Jersey."
Hey, what's wrong with New Jersey? :-)
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Dude, NOTHING..... (except for those ugly chemical plants facing NYC when you take off from Newark's airport).
The place is a gastronomical heaven... One of the best dinners I ever had was in Hoboken... at a Mafia owned fish restaurant that merged Las Vegas with Miami Vice... but offered some of the best italian fish plates and big ass, serious martinis I've ever had the pleasure of tasting. If you like REAL Italian food, NJ is DA PLACE, paisano..
Don't even get me started with the Portuguese, Brazilian, Galician and Jewish food. I almost kissed the waiter when he brought up my plate of "Pulpo de Feria".... It'd been like 30 years since I had that dish.
In LA you eat Mexican/Asian/fusion.... BUT in New Jersey.. OMG... California Pizza Kitchen need NOT apply. ;-)
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You got that right brother, some of the BEST food........I'm from Long Island, talk about FOOD!
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Torque
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
TonyE wrote:
dampflok wrote:
Like the saying goes, the first step to recovery is acknowledging that you have a problem.
As for this: "[T]he battle for Honda's automotive soul is being played out in places like Asahi and Minami's sprawling third-floor studio in the Tokyo suburb of Wako. If the upscale Aoyama neighborhood that houses Honda's headquarters can be likened to New York's Fifth Avenue, then Wako would be a dreary town in New Jersey."
Hey, what's wrong with New Jersey? :-)
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Dude, NOTHING..... (except for those ugly chemical plants facing NYC when you take off from Newark's airport).
The place is a gastronomical heaven... One of the best dinners I ever had was in Hoboken... at a Mafia owned fish restaurant that merged Las Vegas with Miami Vice... but offered some of the best italian fish plates and big ass, serious martinis I've ever had the pleasure of tasting. If you like REAL Italian food, NJ is DA PLACE, paisano..
Don't even get me started with the Portuguese, Brazilian, Galician and Jewish food. I almost kissed the waiter when he brought up my plate of "Pulpo de Feria".... It'd been like 30 years since I had that dish.
In LA you eat Mexican/Asian/fusion.... BUT in New Jersey.. OMG... California Pizza Kitchen need NOT apply. ;-)
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You got that right brother, some of the BEST food........I'm from Long Island, talk about FOOD!
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I am born and raised in NJ and I can definitely vouch for the food part. Short of going to those countries, you will find some of the best Mom & Pop ethnic eateries. Domino's, Papa John's, etc. never opened up locations near where I grew up because of all the authentic Italian restaurants. If you want some of the best paella, go to Jersey City. The Jewish Delis and bagel shops are the real deal. Little India in Iselin has some of the best Northern/Southern Indian food you can find. Whenever I go back to visit I always make sure to stop by some of the old favorites.
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CarPhreakD
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kirk wrote:
Preferences matter as well. I love a choppy ride. I feel connected in my HFP suspension and summer tires.
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Don't confuse "connectedness" feedback, and good suspension design with "choppy ride". They are mutually exclusive in most cases.
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