PGH
 |
|
|
It looks like it will shopped against the TSX and new Accord. It is a nice shape but all too familiar
|
DCR
|
|
|
Uh oh, the forum police are going to arrest you.
|
PGH
|
|
|
It would not be the first time. Anyway, I still think this was the Honda Civic before world money crisis and Honda decided to give us the current model,or perhaps this car was the reson the Civic was a little on the cheap side. Don't get me wrong both are good cars and the Acura version gets it more right but I have to think about Honda without Acura and how Honda could and would benifit.
|
Colin
|
|
PGH wrote:
Don't get me wrong both are good cars and the Acura version gets it more right but I have to think about Honda without Acura and how Honda could and would benifit.
|
So IMO, if there was no Acura, we'd simply have $30K Honda Civics because it's not the badge, its the added content you're paying for. Would the American buyer embrace such a car? Hard to say.
|
Potenza
|
|
I agree, this is shaping up to be simply a very nice Civic. At least the Integra used to have a different shape and upgraded engines. There was a large disparity there, and apart from those in the know, the common buyer didn't know it was on a Civic platform. With the ILX it's far too obvious in all specs.
What really bugs me is the large amount of amber in the headlights. It's so Civic. Meanwhile the competitors at BMW and Mercedes figured out long ago to keep the headlights crystal clear and put the amber reflector separately on the fender. A much cleaner, more upscale look. (And certainly a way to separate it from lesser offerings.) Though the new GS has the reflector in the headlight housings, it is small and darkened. With the ILX, no attention seems to have been given to the details.
With a luxury brand, it should be all about the details. Acura finally nailed it with the ZDX - noticeably their Tier 1 effort. Finally the grille and the headlights lined up perfectly. The hood went all the way to the grille. The plastic mesh matched in both the upper and lower grilles. The taillights were given a beautiful upscale treatment as all BMW's have. The exhausts were integrated into the bumper, with the reflectors cleanly integrated into the same housings. There was a large panoramic sunroof. And inside was the upscale leather and stitching and the buttons that only lit up when in use. Great attention to detail inside and out.
Now with the ILX, the upper and lower grilles are back to not matching. Hood doesn't meet the grille. Normal sunroof. Amber Civic headlights. Civic exhaust pipe. No LED running lights, god forbid. No turn signals on the mirrors, even. (Which are standard on every Scion, though.) While the latter used to be a way to distinguish Acura from Honda, now it's apparently being used to distinguish hybrids from non-hybrids, even with Acura. I'll bet the hybrid ILX has turn signal indicators on the mirrors. So special.
How is this a competitor to anything but a Mazda, VW, or TSX?
|
adrianchew
|
|
Potenza wrote:
How is this a competitor to anything but a Mazda, VW, or TSX?
|
Its quite amazing what VW has done - the Jetta has an almost-Audi look now with the update yet its a cheaper car that they're producing.
|
Colin
|
|
Potenza wrote:
I agree, this is shaping up to be simply a very nice Civic. At least the Integra used to have a different shape and upgraded engines. There was a large disparity there, and apart from those in the know, the common buyer didn't know it was on a Civic platform. With the ILX it's far too obvious in all specs.
|
|
Vinnyboss
|
|
|
wow...I was so excited about this vehicle..but now not so much. No signal on mirrors, no LED lights....back end is extremely meek and mild compared to the concept version which looked much more aggressive. No dual exhaust shown...this looks like a civic....no thanks
|
dominik331
|
|
Vinnyboss wrote:
Anybody know if ILX will paddle shifters? I'm excited bout this vehicle, time to step up from my civic and this looks to be perfect solution
|
Vinnyboss wrote:
wow...I was so excited about this vehicle..but now not so much. No signal on mirrors, no LED lights....back end is extremely meek and mild compared to the concept version which looked much more aggressive. No dual exhaust shown...this looks like a civic....no thanks
|
What a difference two days make!
|
DCR
|
|
|
Since these are just patent filings, MAYBE some of the details that are missing will show up in metal. Possibly not, but maybe.
|
Vinnyboss
|
|
|
maybe its the rims combined with the back end, but this just looks like a civic again.....rear exhaust should be visible
|
PGH
|
|
Colin wrote:
PGH wrote:
Don't get me wrong both are good cars and the Acura version gets it more right but I have to think about Honda without Acura and how Honda could and would benifit.
|
So IMO, if there was no Acura, we'd simply have $30K Honda Civics because it's not the badge, its the added content you're paying for. Would the American buyer embrace such a car? Hard to say.
|
Whats more content than a EXL Civic. with nav?. Better engine ?quieter more quality inside?Lets see how it shakes out. Acura is about 5k more than the Acura clone
|
Potenza
|
|
Colin wrote:
Potenza wrote:
I agree, this is shaping up to be simply a very nice Civic. At least the Integra used to have a different shape and upgraded engines. There was a large disparity there, and apart from those in the know, the common buyer didn't know it was on a Civic platform. With the ILX it's far too obvious in all specs.
|
|
Do we know yet if the front will be struts or wishbones? A chassis step-up would go a ways toward winning me over, personally.
|
Colin
|
|
Potenza wrote:
Colin wrote:
Potenza wrote:
I agree, this is shaping up to be simply a very nice Civic. At least the Integra used to have a different shape and upgraded engines. There was a large disparity there, and apart from those in the know, the common buyer didn't know it was on a Civic platform. With the ILX it's far too obvious in all specs.
|
|
Do we know yet if the front will be struts or wishbones? A chassis step-up would go a ways toward winning me over, personally.
|
I know the hard points carry over, but every single panel is different. Just as the Integra carried the Civic hard points but every body panel was different. From a styling perspective, I don't see how one is 'ok' and the other is not.
|
Potenza
|
|
Colin wrote:
I know the hard points carry over, but every single panel is different. Just as the Integra carried the Civic hard points but every body panel was different. From a styling perspective, I don't see how one is 'ok' and the other is not.
|
Maybe it's that the past cars were designed from the start to be different models within the same lineup in Japan... Honda Civic, Honda Integra. This ILX, it seems to me, was designed just to be an Acura Civic. Merely a "let's be less obvious than the CSX rebadge" attempt.
I mean, look at Neil's ILX/Civic comparison... would it really be that similar with the Integra/Civic?? I just don't believe it.
|
saitamahonda
|
|
I agree with Potenza, the lack of the FINE details is where Honda/Acura always fail to cover.
The amber in the headlights, lack of LEDs, no turn signal mirrors are things luxury car buys DO look at. Smoked rear tails would be a nice touch too.
That being said, the accent plate separating the drl and projector is surprisingly tasteful and well executed.
I suppose if there weren't any flaws we wouldn't be going out of our way clearing out headlights and blacking out anything chrome. At least these things we can do something about. Hopefully a MMC or special edition will come out with better mirrors and classier head/taillights.
Heck, I would love to see the TSX with the new Euro Accord headlights. Such a difference headlights make. The greenish tinge chrome/glass is classy. The only real classy Acura right now is the ZDX, and to me, its really thanks to those awesome taillights. They look awesome at night when illuminated. That's when they need to look classy, when most of the car is a silhouette or a shroud of darkness. It should not be two rows of 5 beady little LEDs!
|
Potenza
|
|
saitamahonda wrote:
the lack of the FINE details is where Honda/Acura always fail to cover.
The amber in the headlights, lack of LEDs, no turn signal mirrors are things luxury car buys DO look at. Smoked rear tails would be a nice touch too.
|
saitamahonda wrote:
The only real classy Acura right now is the ZDX, and to me, its really thanks to those awesome taillights. They look awesome at night when illuminated. That's when they need to look classy, when most of the car is a silhouette or a shroud of darkness. It should not be two rows of 5 beady little LEDs!
|
|
Colin
|
|
Potenza wrote:
Colin wrote:
I know the hard points carry over, but every single panel is different. Just as the Integra carried the Civic hard points but every body panel was different. From a styling perspective, I don't see how one is 'ok' and the other is not.
|
|
I don't know, I think everyone was less critical back then. Honda/Acura was much smaller and the buyers somewhat 'self qualified' themselves as similar thinkers who appreciated Honda's approach. Pre-internet, there was always some complaining that you couldn't get a GS-R with an automatic, but it was nothing like we see these days (re. complaining). Also remember that the yen to dollar ratio back then gave Japanese automakers great flexibility to tinker that today's exchange rates make much harder.
Maybe it's like the music we loved when we were teens? Nothing these days comes close to matching the emotional ties you have with the songs we loved when we were 16. It doesn't matter if you were 16 in 1950, 1965, or 1989. Cars are probably the same. Viewed without the nostalgia of what we loved, the Integra isn't that great a car objectively (this from someone who had 3 GS-Rs).
I've said it before and hate to sound like a broken record, but this car should be significantly wider than a Civic, and I think this alone will change the 'stance' of the car. I only wish folks would give it a chance and wait to see it in the flesh.
|
DCR
|
|
Having to "give it a chance" is already a problem, Colin.
I don't hate the ILX, but it is not something I am interested in buying.
I think Honda should let people figure out the relationship to the Civic via speculation and rumor, rather than come out and say "Here is an Acura based off of our economy car." That is what is going to hurt this car most.
|
Colin
|
|
DCR wrote:
I think Honda should let people figure out the relationship to the Civic via speculation and rumor, rather than come out and say "Here is an Acura based off of our economy car." That is what is going to hurt this car most.
|
I'm sure Honda will do this. If you recall, Ikeda only mentioned its Civic relationship for TOV readers, acknowledging that people here are already 'in the know'.
|
Great_Tubimi
|
|
Colin wrote:
DCR wrote:
I think Honda should let people figure out the relationship to the Civic via speculation and rumor, rather than come out and say "Here is an Acura based off of our economy car." That is what is going to hurt this car most.
|
I'm sure Honda will do this. If you recall, Ikeda only mentioned its Civic relationship for TOV readers, acknowledging that people here are already 'in the know'.
|
I'm pretty sure he meant that the message of "Civic+" has already been conveyed via the sheet metal.
I'm just amazed at how this looks so much more like a Civic than the concept. I really don't see the point of not going with the superior concept design.
|
Colin
|
|
Great_Tubimi wrote:
Colin wrote:
DCR wrote:
I think Honda should let people figure out the relationship to the Civic via speculation and rumor, rather than come out and say "Here is an Acura based off of our economy car." That is what is going to hurt this car most.
|
I'm sure Honda will do this. If you recall, Ikeda only mentioned its Civic relationship for TOV readers, acknowledging that people here are already 'in the know'.
|
I'm pretty sure he meant that the message of "Civic+" has already been conveyed via the sheet metal.
I'm just amazed at how this looks so much more like a Civic than the concept. I really don't see the point of not going with the superior concept design.
|
LOL, I'm sorry but what are you guys talking about? The "sky is blue", "no it's red"!? Every piece of sheetmetal is different.
|
Great_Tubimi
|
|
Colin wrote:
Great_Tubimi wrote:
Colin wrote:
DCR wrote:
I think Honda should let people figure out the relationship to the Civic via speculation and rumor, rather than come out and say "Here is an Acura based off of our economy car." That is what is going to hurt this car most.
|
I'm sure Honda will do this. If you recall, Ikeda only mentioned its Civic relationship for TOV readers, acknowledging that people here are already 'in the know'.
|
I'm pretty sure he meant that the message of "Civic+" has already been conveyed via the sheet metal.
I'm just amazed at how this looks so much more like a Civic than the concept. I really don't see the point of not going with the superior concept design.
|
LOL, I'm sorry but what are you guys talking about? The "sky is blue", "no it's red"!? Every piece of sheetmetal is different.
|
I'm sure "every piece of sheet metal is different" on the latest generation of the RL, but it still got knocked for having a very Accord-like profile.
I'm not saying this is a lazy rebadge, but in terms of outward design language, this ILX is closer to the CSX than it is to the Integra in terms of carryover of actual Civic design language.
This vehicle is not ugly or doomed for failure, I simply wish more had been done to differentiate the resulting vehicle from it's platform source. Civic+ appears to be what they going for. From what I can see, I'm knocking their intentions and not simply their execution.
|
Potenza
|
|
Great_Tubimi wrote:
I'm not saying this is a lazy rebadge, but in terms of outward design language, this ILX is closer to the CSX than it is to the Integra in terms of carryover of actual Civic design language.
This vehicle is not ugly or doomed for failure, I simply wish more had been done to differentiate the resulting vehicle from it's platform source. Civic+ appears to be what they going for. From what I can see, I'm knocking their intentions and not simply their execution.
|
Meanwhile the ILX - being a front strut, Civic-based chassis with Civic engines - is unlikely to stir the soul the way the Integra, RSX, TL-S, and many other particular Acuras have. In other words it will win sales but not likely many hearts. Will owning an ILX trigger someone to spend the next couple of decades as a Honda/Acura fan posting on TOV? A car special enough to make owners so brand loyal and enthusiastic? I don't see it having the ingredients for that, though of course it remains to be seen.
I also see it as a failure of Honda/Acura to really understand the market, which I find disappointing. A product to attract the younger crowd has to have more than a low price. So in that sense, I believe they missed the target the way they did with the Civic, in that instance foregoing major upgrades in lieu of keeping the price low in response to the economic times. But while the Civic is still a good Honda, it got ripped apart. While the ILX is a great Honda, I see it deserving the same criticism. Where's the top-notch effort of Honda engineering and Acura excellence? Where's the substance that tells us this is something other than a Civic with leather seats and more sound deadening?
As Great_Tubimi wrote, the ILX isn't ugly or doomed for failure... it's just mediocre. Unfortunately the higher-than-TSX sales will give Acura the impression it has done the perfect job. Just like the recent spike in Civic sales leading to a possible retraction of upgrades, coincidentally. Honda is notoriously good at learning the wrong lessons...
|
| N/A |
|
|
This message is below your viewing threshold, you may view the message by clicking on the link:
View Message
|
Colin
|
|
Potenza wrote:
That said, the sales come at what cost? Unfortunately, the demise of the TSX - and its unique wagon sibling - which combined sell about 34k a year. So is it worth dropping that universally well-liked and established name for 6k more units a year?
|
I can only imagine that 40K US made ILXs are better for Honda's bottom line than 34K Japan made TSXs. Plus, if they are able to combine TSX and TL into one (US made) sedan that can hit the former TL heights it could be a further win. So these are 'wins' for HMC, and maybe that's different than what you're talking about (ie wins for the consumer).
However, I've written this several times before had Acura introduced this car as the 'new' TSX at it's projected price point, TSX resale values would have taken a hit. So in this respect, the new car being an ILX is a "win" for existing TSX owners.
It seems obvious that Acura wants to lower the entry point for the brand. So the best choice is to make the new car in the US, use a less expensive chassis, and give it a new name so it can overlap the current TSX and it won't disrupt resale values or lease residuals that are already set. Finally, what if Acura has a trick up their sleeves? What if the TSX chassis didn't go away with the next gen, but came back as a coupe?
|
danielgr
|
|
Potenza wrote:
I agree, this is shaping up to be simply a very nice Civic. At least the Integra used to have a different shape and upgraded engines. There was a large disparity there, and apart from those in the know, the common buyer didn't know it was on a Civic platform. With the ILX it's far too obvious in all specs.
What really bugs me is the large amount of amber in the headlights. It's so Civic. Meanwhile the competitors at BMW and Mercedes figured out long ago to keep the headlights crystal clear and put the amber reflector separately on the fender. A much cleaner, more upscale look. (And certainly a way to separate it from lesser offerings.) Though the new GS has the reflector in the headlight housings, it is small and darkened. With the ILX, no attention seems to have been given to the details.
With a luxury brand, it should be all about the details. Acura finally nailed it with the ZDX - noticeably their Tier 1 effort. Finally the grille and the headlights lined up perfectly. The hood went all the way to the grille. The plastic mesh matched in both the upper and lower grilles. The taillights were given a beautiful upscale treatment as all BMW's have. The exhausts were integrated into the bumper, with the reflectors cleanly integrated into the same housings. There was a large panoramic sunroof. And inside was the upscale leather and stitching and the buttons that only lit up when in use. Great attention to detail inside and out.
Now with the ILX, the upper and lower grilles are back to not matching. Hood doesn't meet the grille. Normal sunroof. Amber Civic headlights. Civic exhaust pipe. No LED running lights, god forbid. No turn signals on the mirrors, even. (Which are standard on every Scion, though.) While the latter used to be a way to distinguish Acura from Honda, now it's apparently being used to distinguish hybrids from non-hybrids, even with Acura. I'll bet the hybrid ILX has turn signal indicators on the mirrors. So special.
How is this a competitor to anything but a Mazda, VW, or TSX?
|
2nd) Right now I don't think this car has any competitor, and it amazes me that every time Honda tries something new people on this forum criticize them for it. As if they didn't criticize them enough for "not trying new stuff". The ILX may be cross-shopped with anything from a Civic to a TSX, yet there is no straight competitor to be found. Don't you worry though, if it's successful the rest will join the party, may already be working on it.
3rd) I really can't tell how would anyone find this car less different to a Civic than the Integra's used to be, they are completely different no matter if you look inside or out, and regardless what Neal may attempt with its "line-drawings". The overall shape of most recent cars is pretty similar, but that says nothing about the design of a car, what it inspires on people and how they feel about it; I'm actually rather surprised at some of Neal comments on that topic, after all he is supposed to be a designer.
4th) Now I'm really impressed at you Potenza citing the ZDX as the model Honda should follow with Acura... Also surprised that you can't see the difference between a car that will sell "well below 30k" and one that starts at 46k.
To sum up, I reacted on it because you tend to post sensible stuff Potenza, but was rather surprised to see such a poor post where really very little makes any sense apart from your dislike of "amber in headlights"...
|
| N/A |
|
|
This message is below your viewing threshold, you may view the message by clicking on the link:
View Message
|
Potenza
|
|
danielgr wrote:
1st) The only engine this car may share with the Civic is the 2.4L, the other two are completely unique to it, which is about what happened with the Integra/RSX. Yet I can still hear those complaining that the K24 would be perfect for a more mature and luxurious ride, but not for an Si; well, now you are likely to get it but seems that again it was the wrong move... This place is sick, really.
2nd) Right now I don't think this car has any competitor, and it amazes me that every time Honda tries something new people on this forum criticize them for it. As if they didn't criticize them enough for "not trying new stuff". The ILX may be cross-shopped with anything from a Civic to a TSX, yet there is no straight competitor to be found. Don't you worry though, if it's successful the rest will join the party, may already be working on it.
3rd) I really can't tell how would anyone find this car less different to a Civic than the Integra's used to be, they are completely different no matter if you look inside or out, and regardless what Neal may attempt with its "line-drawings". The overall shape of most recent cars is pretty similar, but that says nothing about the design of a car, what it inspires on people and how they feel about it; I'm actually rather surprised at some of Neal comments on that topic, after all he is supposed to be a designer.
4th) Now I'm really impressed at you Potenza citing the ZDX as the model Honda should follow with Acura... Also surprised that you can't see the difference between a car that will sell "well below 30k" and one that starts at 46k.
To sum up, I reacted on it because you tend to post sensible stuff Potenza, but was rather surprised to see such a poor post where really very little makes any sense apart from your dislike of "amber in headlights"...
|
I don't criticize Honda for trying something new. I love the ZDX. I love the CR-Z. I like the Crosstour. New is fine. I just don't see how the ILX is "new stuff" in any bold sense. It's far from bold... that's the problem.
And why does it have to have a "straight competitor?" If it can be cross-shopped with anything - and as far as consumers go it can be shopped against everything - it has a lot of competition. When someone buys a car they are picking one out of the marketplace and making a huge financial purchase on it. It has to be the single best choice for them out of hundreds of automobiles to choose from. I just don't see what makes the ILX the best. Why pick this over a Civic Hybrid with leather? Why pick it over a nice Mazda or VW? We shouldn't even be having such a discussion concerning an Acura, but consumers will ask these questions about the ILX before laying out their money.
As far as the ZDX, I can tell the difference between a well-executed design and a poor one. It takes $20k extra to get the hood to meet the grille, or for the grille patterns to match? What a shame.
|
Potenza
|
|
Potenza wrote:
danielgr wrote:
4th) Now I'm really impressed at you Potenza citing the ZDX as the model Honda should follow with Acura... Also surprised that you can't see the difference between a car that will sell "well below 30k" and one that starts at 46k.
|
|
I have a feeling Acura is going to lose more than a few young, potential ILX buyers to the Ford Focus, oddly. More body-style choices, more wheel choices, more options and available features. They'll probably even be willing to pay more money for the Ford. Choices are the true luxury feature, after all.
I've argued in favor of the ZDX, I've argued in favor of the alphanumeric names, I've argued in favor of the V10 FR coupe, argued in favor of the RL, etc... but as of now this ILX is the first time it's hit me that Acura doesn't get it. Between soul and (mediocre) sales numbers, they go with one-time sales. What a short-term, quick-buck plan.
|
|
|
| |
|
![[home]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/home.gif){kind=small}
![[rumors and news]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/rumors.gif){kind=small}
![[model release matrix]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/newmodelreleasematrix.gif){kind=small}
![[dealer network]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/dealernet.gif){kind=small}
![[desktop calendar]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/calendar.gif){kind=small}
![[exhaust notes]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/exhaust.gif){kind=small}
![[tov forums]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/forums.gif){kind=small}
![[links]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/links.gif){kind=small}
![[search]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/search.gif){kind=small}
![[sponsors]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/sponsors.gif){kind=small}
![[garage]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/garage.gif){kind=small}
![[login]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/login.gif){kind=small}
