owequitit
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http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/new-volkswagen-golf-gti-mark-7-2012-01-30
This is an interesting development, and will put the final nail in the coffin of the Si only one year into production.
Notice how they are saying it will lose about 200lbs, and gain a fair bit of power. To be sure, the Euro spec GTI's are usually a little bit more aggressive than ours, but even still, it will not weigh much more than the Si, will have more power, etc. That doesn't bode well for the Si because it will then be relegated to easily the back of the performance pack. At least it can hunt with the current GTI. Of course, we all know that there isn't likely any additional power left in the K24 because of the enviro-friendly changes and the fact that it has been stagnant in output for roughly 10 years now.
What I found most interesting though, is the effect that US CAFE regs are starting to play in car design. Notice that they are moving the wheels about 40mm foward. That gives it a bigger "footprint" in probably a smaller body, which means less overhang. That trend is starting to spread and may be in part to get the CAFE requirement down, while minimizing weight. Both good for the enthusiast, IMO.
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blueSi
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The next GTI?
The current GTI already crushes the current Si.
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superchg2
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I have yet to see a single one of the new Si's on the road!
Since the current GTI already outperforms the Si, a new and improved version would make the Si a non-competitor.
Now, if only VW could get their reliability reputation up to snuff!
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superchg2
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What's interesting about news of the next generation GTI's arrival in 2012 is that we still haven't seen the arrival of the current generation type R in the U.S., which was supposed to go on sale this year, also.
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NealX
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superchg2 wrote:
I have yet to see a single one of the new Si's on the road!
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About 2 weeks ago I saw a middle-aged lady driving a Polished Metal here in PHX. That's the only one.
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DCR
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I still won't touch a VW. This thing will murder the Si in every way, and the magazines will be sure to point that out, but it still isn't enough for me to buy one.
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typer_801
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I'm kinda with you on this. Owned many VW's in the past including 3 GTI's and reliability stinks compared to my Honda/Acuras. That said, there's NOTHING in a Honda/Acura showroom I'd want to buy right now, so a trimmed down GTI with more HP sound appealing. If I could get a solid extended warranty on one, might consider going back.
And Golf R's are available to configure online and are being delivered to dealers now.
DCR wrote:
I still won't touch a VW. This thing will murder the Si in every way, and the magazines will be sure to point that out, but it still isn't enough for me to buy one.
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a10thunder
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I hate to defend the 9th gen Si because I am not a fan of it at all. However, a similarly equipped GTI (w/ sunroof, no nav) is $4,000 more!
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luder715
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The new Si is terrible, I sat in my first one a coupe and amazed how much better my 2008 Coupe is. But I would never spend 36K on a Golf (aka GTI R), besides the questionable reliability it looks like a car that cost 15K, my problem with the Subaru STi took a car that cost 15 and cost almost 3 times as more as the base model without any major body or interior upgrades.
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pezones
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superchg2 wrote:
What's interesting about news of the next generation GTI's arrival in 2012 is that we still haven't seen the arrival of the current generation type R in the U.S., which was supposed to go on sale this year, also.
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they started arriving early this month
http://forums.vwvortex.com/forumdisplay.php?1190-Golf-VI-R
THIS is my exact dilemma. my '07 si has 150k+. ill be ready for a new car soon, i'm on tov every day hoping ill see something that i would want to make my next car. and as of now it just is not happening.
i really think my next car will be a gti - i really like the golf r- but with a new golf just about to appear, i think ill wait.
the vw 'reliability' thing is my biggest issue, as my past 7 cars have been acura/honda.
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typer_801
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Golf R's list for quite a bit out of the gate ('04 & '08), but wait till October when some are leftover and the prices get much more appetizing.
luder715 wrote:
The new Si is terrible, I sat in my first one a coupe and amazed how much better my 2008 Coupe is. But I would never spend 36K on a Golf (aka GTI R), besides the questionable reliability it looks like a car that cost 15K, my problem with the Subaru STi took a car that cost 15 and cost almost 3 times as more as the base model without any major body or interior upgrades.
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typer_801
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Wow, just read the link. 200lbs lighter, more hp, 260 ft/lbs of torque. Mechanical LSD. Sounds impressive, the Si really can't compete with that level of performance.
The GTD diesel (I expect is a Europe Only engine) is said to increase from 170 hp to 190hp and go to 280 ft/lbs of torque. That doensnt' sound too bad either. Not normally a diesel lover, but 190hp/280 ft/lbs in a 200 lb lighter Golf sounds good particularly with the MPG I'm sure it delivers.
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Potenza
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I just sat in a GTI at the local Motor Trend car show a few days ago, and its price was $32,000. No thanks.
The seats were far better than the Si seats, but the shifter had a stupid-long throw. Much longer than the Dodge Challenger I was rowing earlier.
We can hardly cheer about the supposed switch away from the brake-based slip control, when the Si has had a true mechanical LSD for years now. As for the rest of the rumors, we'll wait and see. When the reality we see is that most of the US-market VW cars are being dumbed down, I'm not ready to jump on an article that states the exact opposite for the GTI. For Germany? Sure, quite likely. For the States? We'll see.
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DCR
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Was that an Autobahn version?
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Potenza
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DCR wrote:
Was that an Autobahn version?
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superchg2
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Potenza wrote:
DCR wrote:
Was that an Autobahn version?
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Those wheels are awful. They look like cuisinart blades.
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Hondarulez
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blueSi wrote:
The next GTI?
The current GTI already crushes the current Si.
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Hmm..I wouldn't say crush...performance wise, they are pretty even...from 0-60, 1/4 mile, to handling, braking etc. It's just that, when you talk about the OVERALL package and stuff, like interior, steering feel, and things like that, then the GTI is supposed to be better. Of course, that comes at a price.
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owequitit
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blueSi wrote:
The next GTI?
The current GTI already crushes the current Si.
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I wouldn't say crush is very accurate. It is a few 10ths faster in the 1/4, but traps similarly, so almost all of that is the turbo's torque off the line.
In terms of refinement and build quality? Probably. Reliability? No.
I personally like the GTI a lot, and used to like the GLI, but it is weird hearing a GLI that sounds like a Subaru boxer, as the latest one does. My two biggest issues with the current GTI are price and unknown reliability. VW seems to be improving in the reliability department, but I will need a few more years of solid results before I bite that it is actually better.
Had Honda not cheaped the Si, it probably would have continued to carry my favor, but with the cheap plastic interior, lackluster powertrain, and reports of some preliminary engine failure issues, I just wouldn't put my stock in one. Even if the engine thing proves to be a fluke, or bad batch of blocks, it just doesn't cut it from Honda IMO. I hate to beat a dead horse, but a 225HP-240HP K20-K22 with the LSD would have made it a non-issue.
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Powered by Honda
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GTi has always been a more expensive upper class-men type SI.
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giltibo
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A NEW GTI will trump a NEW Si.
A 80 000km (about 55 000 miles) Si owner will smile at his almost new Honda while the 80 000km GTI owner cries at the VW dealership's service department.
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giltibo
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A NEW GTI will bring a few more smiles to your face than a NEW Si.
A 80 000km (about 49 000 miles) Si owner will smile at his almost new Si while the 80 000km GTI owner (and his wallet) cries tears of blood in the waiting room of a VW dealer's service department.
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TonyEX
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giltibo wrote:
A NEW GTI will trump a NEW Si.
A 80 000km (about 55 000 miles) Si owner will smile at his almost new Honda while the 80 000km GTI owner cries at the VW dealership's service department.
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50K miles? LOL, that's nothing for an AHM car.
Hah... at almost 120K miles my Civic Hybrid is just cruising. One minor issue related to being rear ended but AHM/dealer took care of it. The issue did not affect the driving, just a loose wire that confused the "info panel".
The Fit, at almost 50K miles. is rolling along just fine.
I figured that an Si might get more abuse, but with a grown up at the wheel, the clutch may still be going strong at 120K miles.
The crazy thing about the Hondas is that you can pretty much plan your maintenance AND repairs with the user's manual maintenance minder.
Add a few tires here and there, disc brakes, disc pads and perhaps some shocks and CV joint boots at 150K miles.
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Grace141
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Powered by Honda wrote:
GTi has always been a more expensive upper class-men type SI.
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Provided always means the past ten years or so. The 1st gen GTi was the Plymouth Horizon Chrysler wasn't able to build. The 2nd Gen GTi took a good thing and softened it up a little too much. Does anyone really remember the 3rd gen GTi?
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Fan Koni
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Grace141 wrote:
Powered by Honda wrote:
GTi has always been a more expensive upper class-men type SI.
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Provided always means the past ten years or so. The 1st gen GTi was the Plymouth Horizon Chrysler wasn't able to build. The 2nd Gen GTi took a good thing and softened it up a little too much. Does anyone really remember the 3rd gen GTi?
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Yupp, those where the days of VTEC.
When the 1.6 civic/CRX crushed the 2.0 VW junk, even the VR6 wasn't great without aftermarket tuning.
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typer_801
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Yes, owned one of each (83 GTI, 88 GTI 16V, and 97 GTI VR6 Driver's Edition).
Each car progressively lost more of it's fun-to-drive elements while continuing to pick up speed and grow in size. VR6 was the worst handler by far, but made beautiful sounds. Not much HP to be gained on the VR6's either compared to a B-Series VTEC honda/Acura for normal I/H/E mods. ECU tuning was much easier though (then).
Went from a GTI VR6 to an Integra Type R. Talk about night and day different.
Grace141 wrote:
Powered by Honda wrote:
GTi has always been a more expensive upper class-men type SI.
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Provided always means the past ten years or so. The 1st gen GTi was the Plymouth Horizon Chrysler wasn't able to build. The 2nd Gen GTi took a good thing and softened it up a little too much. Does anyone really remember the 3rd gen GTi?
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Grace141
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typer_801 wrote:
Yes, owned one of each (83 GTI, 88 GTI 16V, and 97 GTI VR6 Driver's Edition).
Each car progressively lost more of it's fun-to-drive elements while continuing to pick up speed and grow in size. VR6 was the worst handler by far, but made beautiful sounds. Not much HP to be gained on the VR6's either compared to a B-Series VTEC honda/Acura for normal I/H/E mods. ECU tuning was much easier though (then).
Went from a GTI VR6 to an Integra Type R. Talk about night and day different.
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I wouldn't mind having that '83 GTi today. Definitely a car which played above its head in terms of performance and specs. When I read complaints about strut suspensions and twist beams I always think of my wife's 1st gen Scirocco, a car which would cling to cloverleaf ramps like Velcro.
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JeffX
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Grace141 wrote:
typer_801 wrote:
Yes, owned one of each (83 GTI, 88 GTI 16V, and 97 GTI VR6 Driver's Edition).
Each car progressively lost more of it's fun-to-drive elements while continuing to pick up speed and grow in size. VR6 was the worst handler by far, but made beautiful sounds. Not much HP to be gained on the VR6's either compared to a B-Series VTEC honda/Acura for normal I/H/E mods. ECU tuning was much easier though (then).
Went from a GTI VR6 to an Integra Type R. Talk about night and day different.
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I wouldn't mind having that '83 GTi today. Definitely a car which played above its head in terms of performance and specs. When I read complaints about strut suspensions and twist beams I always think of my wife's 1st gen Scirocco, a car which would cling to cloverleaf ramps like Velcro.
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ever negotiate a frost heave or a jacked up diagonal expansion strip in the middle of one of those cloverleaf ramps in that Scirocco? twist beam rear suspensions are great on perfectly smooth roads but they quickly go to shit as soon as there's any sort of challenging surface conditions.
and double wishbones are far better behaved than mcstruts while handling the double duty of putting down power and turning the vehicle.
Compared to a TSX, the Si "clings to cloverleafs like velcro" too, but the overall ride and handling tradeoffs are like night and day between the vehicles. In particular, negotiating bumpy turns while under power application, the TSX's composure levels blow away the Si.
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NoSpinZone
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Jeff,
Interesting point... I didn't realize DWB were that much better... what about an M3 or Porsche 911.... or what about a Mustang GT with its twist beam... why wouldn't they switch to better setups??
What do you think of a LSD in a TSX, ILX, or Accord Coupe V6?
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Grace141
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Jeff wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
typer_801 wrote:
Yes, owned one of each (83 GTI, 88 GTI 16V, and 97 GTI VR6 Driver's Edition).
Each car progressively lost more of it's fun-to-drive elements while continuing to pick up speed and grow in size. VR6 was the worst handler by far, but made beautiful sounds. Not much HP to be gained on the VR6's either compared to a B-Series VTEC honda/Acura for normal I/H/E mods. ECU tuning was much easier though (then).
Went from a GTI VR6 to an Integra Type R. Talk about night and day different.
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I wouldn't mind having that '83 GTi today. Definitely a car which played above its head in terms of performance and specs. When I read complaints about strut suspensions and twist beams I always think of my wife's 1st gen Scirocco, a car which would cling to cloverleaf ramps like Velcro.
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ever negotiate a frost heave or a jacked up diagonal expansion strip in the middle of one of those cloverleaf ramps in that Scirocco? twist beam rear suspensions are great on perfectly smooth roads but they quickly go to shit as soon as there's any sort of challenging surface conditions.
and double wishbones are far better behaved than mcstruts while handling the double duty of putting down power and turning the vehicle.
Compared to a TSX, the Si "clings to cloverleafs like velcro" too, but the overall ride and handling tradeoffs are like night and day between the vehicles. In particular, negotiating bumpy turns while under power application, the TSX's composure levels blow away the Si.
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Yes, I have driven cloverleaf ramps with frost heaves, pot holes, and such including in that Scirocco. I've also put several hundreds of thousands of miles on cars and trucks having live rear axles while living in the snow belt. It's never been just about the type of suspension used but also how a suspension is tuned and how effectively a car keeps the tire patch planted on the pavement while allowing for roll. That Scirocco ran 13-inch discount radial tires and a curb weight right at 1800 lbs. My first Integra was very nicely balanced but it did push in fast corners and that Scirocco was a better driver's car because of it.
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5-Honda-Man
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As the owner of the current (2010) GTI, I'd say that it's typical VW fare - nice looking but deficient in the quality of the electronics, water-color quality soft paint and long term reliability and durability. The back seats, too, are torture devices that make you sit bolt upright (I'm told; I drive). The ride with the stock 18s is pure junk, taking an otherwise well-conceived suspension and ruining it (the GTIs with 17s actually lap faster than the ones with 18s too; oh noes!).
Handling is only so-so, too. It corners flat, but gets skittish at the limits and the pseudo-LSD is erratic. I haven't driven the 2012 Si, so I can't comment on it relative to the GTI, but I'd say that GTI competitors for the current generation (which is basically a holdover from the last generation) have a very low bar to hurdle in the current GTI.
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