[home][rumors and news][model release matrix][dealer network][desktop calendar][exhaust notes][tov forums][links][search][sponsors][garage][login]

Tire Rack Upgrade Garage
 Search for a Dealer:
 Canadian Flag US Flag
 Honda Acura
 ZIP  
New Acura and Honda Products Fuel Surge in September Automobile Sales
More.......................
2015 CR-V goes on sale tomorrow. Full details released.
More.......................
All-new Honda Civic Type R: unrivalled against the brand's iconic performance flagship models
More.......................
Honda reveals 2015 CR-V
More.......................
Honda adds Special Edition trim level to 2015 Civic Lineup
More.......................
Honda releases sales figures for August 2014
More.......................
2015 Accord goes on sale today, "Gets Multiple Feature Upgrades"
More.......................
NSX prototype smolders at the 'Ring
More.......................
TLX --> Re: TLX Tech vs Accord CVT Touring
Join Discussion......
TLX --> Re: Picked up my GLM V6 Tech!
Join Discussion......
ILX --> Re: 2016 ILX MMC spied with little camo
Join Discussion......
Professional Motorsports --> Re: F1 rumors
Join Discussion......
General Talk --> Re: Z06 at the Nurburgring
Join Discussion......
General Talk --> Re: S660/1000 good news rumors from Japan
Join Discussion......
Today's Reading Links --> Re: Kurdish Mad Max war vehicles
Join Discussion......
CR-V --> Re: 2015 Euro CR-V Good News!
Join Discussion......
HR-V/Vezel --> Re: Update on the HR-V
Join Discussion......
Civic --> Re: latest CTR details - teaser video
Join Discussion......
Today's Reading Links --> Re: Sales are up
Join Discussion......
CR-V --> Re: Heading to a CR-V Preview tomorrow. What do you want to see?
Join Discussion......
Professional Motorsports --> Re: INDYCAR--Pagenaud defects! What is HPD's future?
Join Discussion......
Professional Motorsports --> Honda F1 Leadership?
Join Discussion......
Professional Motorsports --> Honda F1 Leadership?
Join Discussion......
TOV First Drive: 2015 Acura TLX
Read Article....................
Photo Gallery: 2015 Acura TLX 2.4 P-AWS
Read Article....................
Photo Gallery: 2015 Acura TLX 3.5L SH-AWD
Read Article....................
TOV Photo Gallery: 2015 Honda Fit
Read Article....................
PR Photo Gallery: 2015 Honda Fit
Read Article....................
TOV Dyno Test: 2014 Accord Hybrid
Read Article....................

[fancy] [flat] [simple]
  TOV News > Honda Announces Revolutionary Next-generation “Earth Dreams Technology” > > Re: Some interesting points to note

Viewing Threshold (What is this?)

Thread Page - [1] 2
Author
    
JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-29-2011 22:44
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
I spent all day yesterday at Twin Ring Motegi, listening to presentations on this new technology as well as driving a number of prototypes featuring the technology. There is a ton of info and we did not return to our hotel in Tokyo until late in the evening. I only had time to scarf down some food and work briefly before passing out.

NOTE: UNFORTUNATELY, I cannot share drive impressions at this time. These will have to wait until next week when another embargo is lifted.

Anyhow, here are a few things that I found to be interesting about the various "Earth Dream" engines.

The 1.8L engine seems to use the most of the various technologies, which makes me wonder which car Honda is planning to use it in. DOHC with DUAL VTC, atkinson + Power VTEC, tubular exhaust manifold (this was the only engine on display that didn't have a cast-in exhaust manifold)

The new 3.5L V6 with direct injection offers FULL hi/lo (SOHC) VTEC on intake and exhaust lobes PLUS VCM. Honda has abandoned the 3/4/6-cyl of VCM2, though, so this only offers 3-cyl and 6-cyl modes.

I was told that the 2.2L i-DTEC diesel was going to be replaced by the 1.6L i-DTEC.

The new CVT was designed to be more efficient and also to deliver more driving enjoyment. Honda has developed some technology to improve the belt/pulley interface and that's designed to make the CVT respond more naturally to driver inputs and to mitigate the "rubber band effect" that is disliked by many drivers.

There is probably some more stuff but things are pretty hectic here at Tokyo Big Sight today so if I think of more stuff I will try to post it here later.


Last edited by JeffX on 11-29-2011 23:10
sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-29-2011 22:52
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
What about some more feedback on the drive impressions Jeff??
Potenza
Profile for Potenza
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-29-2011 22:56
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Jeff wrote:
The 1.8L engine seems to use the most of the various technologies, which makes me wonder which car Honda is planning to use it in. DOHC with DUAL VTC, atkinson + Power VTEC, tubular exhaust manifold (this was the only engine on display that didn't have a cast-in exhaust manifold)

I was wondering that myself. The info panel says "over 148hp."

It can't really be the Fit, because that would mean more horsepower than the Civic.

Surely not enough horsepower for the Accord.

But Civic? That already makes 140hp with a SOHC and no DI and is rated up to 41mpg.


Fit Si?...
FiSH-Chan
Profile for FiSH-Chan
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-29-2011 23:01
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Jeff wrote:

The new CVT was designed to be more efficient and also to deliver more driving enjoyment. Honda has developed some technology to improve the belt/pulley interface and that's designed to make the CVT respond more naturally to driver inputs and to mitigate the "rubber band effect" that is disliked by many drivers.


Thanks to you & your team for all of this, I appreciate this info.

About the CVT, ha, I was just posting about the "natural" feel thing in the other Press Releases thread.. but I guess it is a slightly different to what I was saying. Still, it's nice to hear they imporved on the CVT
iutodd
Profile for iutodd
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-29-2011 23:11
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Potenza wrote:
Jeff wrote:
The 1.8L engine seems to use the most of the various technologies, which makes me wonder which car Honda is planning to use it in. DOHC with DUAL VTC, atkinson + Power VTEC, tubular exhaust manifold (this was the only engine on display that didn't have a cast-in exhaust manifold)

I was wondering that myself. The info panel says "over 148hp."

It can't really be the Fit, because that would mean more horsepower than the Civic.

Surely not enough horsepower for the Accord.

But Civic? That already makes 140hp with a SOHC and no DI and is rated up to 41mpg.


Fit Si?...



So...what would be wrong with a more powerful, more efficient regular Civic? 150 hp, 135 lb-ft and 45+ mpg highway sound pretty good to me. And a Fit Si with that engine would be very nice indeed. It also says that this 1.8L engine has a completely new architecture so I wonder if the R18 is going away?

I think these engines will allow Honda to meet/exceed 2016 CAFE standards. All of the blurbs about the engines seem to be talking about stand alone fuel efficiency gains in the 5-10% range - couple those gains with gains from aerodynamics, transmissions and weight loss and we'll have some very fuel efficient cars coming soon. I wonder if the new Accord gets the CVT. Combine a 5% more efficient engine with a 10% more efficient CVT...that's a 39 mpg highway rated Accord if the claims are true.

Thanks for the info Jeff. So next week we'll be hearing/seeing more of your thoughts?
Potenza
Profile for Potenza
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-29-2011 23:17
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
iutodd wrote:
Potenza wrote:
Jeff wrote:
The 1.8L engine seems to use the most of the various technologies, which makes me wonder which car Honda is planning to use it in. DOHC with DUAL VTC, atkinson + Power VTEC, tubular exhaust manifold (this was the only engine on display that didn't have a cast-in exhaust manifold)

I was wondering that myself. The info panel says "over 148hp."

It can't really be the Fit, because that would mean more horsepower than the Civic.

Surely not enough horsepower for the Accord.

But Civic? That already makes 140hp with a SOHC and no DI and is rated up to 41mpg.


Fit Si?...

So...what would be wrong with a more powerful, more efficient regular Civic? 150 hp, 135 lb-ft and 45+ mpg highway sound pretty good to me. And a Fit Si with that engine would be very nice indeed. It also says that this 1.8L engine has a completely new architecture so I wonder if the R18 is going away?

Nothing wrong, in theory. But a whole new architecture for 8hp and 5 ft/lbs? DI adds cost and DOHC adds weight...
JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-29-2011 23:28
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Potenza wrote:
iutodd wrote:
Potenza wrote:
Jeff wrote:
The 1.8L engine seems to use the most of the various technologies, which makes me wonder which car Honda is planning to use it in. DOHC with DUAL VTC, atkinson + Power VTEC, tubular exhaust manifold (this was the only engine on display that didn't have a cast-in exhaust manifold)

I was wondering that myself. The info panel says "over 148hp."

It can't really be the Fit, because that would mean more horsepower than the Civic.

Surely not enough horsepower for the Accord.

But Civic? That already makes 140hp with a SOHC and no DI and is rated up to 41mpg.


Fit Si?...

So...what would be wrong with a more powerful, more efficient regular Civic? 150 hp, 135 lb-ft and 45+ mpg highway sound pretty good to me. And a Fit Si with that engine would be very nice indeed. It also says that this 1.8L engine has a completely new architecture so I wonder if the R18 is going away?

Nothing wrong, in theory. But a whole new architecture for 8hp and 5 ft/lbs? DI adds cost and DOHC adds weight...



Honda is being very coy about the power and torque ratings. I think they have simply chosen some numbers of a few competitors to say that the new engines will simply be "more than" those guys. With dual VTC, DOHC, direct injection, tubular exhaust manifold and all that other stuff it would surprise me if the 1.8L "earth dreams" engine only developed 148hp. Whatever the numbers work out to be, the whole "earth dreams powertrain 'system' (including the transmission) is designed to optimize the balance between "fun" and "efficiency" depending upon the application. An "earth dream" powertrain that is designed for a fun or sporty car will be designed to deliver the "fun and sporty" attributes along with class leading efficiency. You know, sort of like how Honda did things in the old days.


Last edited by JeffX on 11-29-2011 23:29
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-29-2011 23:29
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Potenza wrote:
iutodd wrote:
Potenza wrote:
Jeff wrote:
The 1.8L engine seems to use the most of the various technologies, which makes me wonder which car Honda is planning to use it in. DOHC with DUAL VTC, atkinson + Power VTEC, tubular exhaust manifold (this was the only engine on display that didn't have a cast-in exhaust manifold)

I was wondering that myself. The info panel says "over 148hp."

It can't really be the Fit, because that would mean more horsepower than the Civic.

Surely not enough horsepower for the Accord.

But Civic? That already makes 140hp with a SOHC and no DI and is rated up to 41mpg.


Fit Si?...

So...what would be wrong with a more powerful, more efficient regular Civic? 150 hp, 135 lb-ft and 45+ mpg highway sound pretty good to me. And a Fit Si with that engine would be very nice indeed. It also says that this 1.8L engine has a completely new architecture so I wonder if the R18 is going away?

Nothing wrong, in theory. But a whole new architecture for 8hp and 5 ft/lbs? DI adds cost and DOHC adds weight...



It would not hurt as an uplevel EX trim. More likely, the "baby Acura" will get it.
JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-30-2011 02:40
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
iutodd wrote:
Potenza wrote:
Jeff wrote:
The 1.8L engine seems to use the most of the various technologies, which makes me wonder which car Honda is planning to use it in. DOHC with DUAL VTC, atkinson + Power VTEC, tubular exhaust manifold (this was the only engine on display that didn't have a cast-in exhaust manifold)

I was wondering that myself. The info panel says "over 148hp."

It can't really be the Fit, because that would mean more horsepower than the Civic.

Surely not enough horsepower for the Accord.

But Civic? That already makes 140hp with a SOHC and no DI and is rated up to 41mpg.


Fit Si?...



So...what would be wrong with a more powerful, more efficient regular Civic? 150 hp, 135 lb-ft and 45+ mpg highway sound pretty good to me. And a Fit Si with that engine would be very nice indeed. It also says that this 1.8L engine has a completely new architecture so I wonder if the R18 is going away?

I think these engines will allow Honda to meet/exceed 2016 CAFE standards. All of the blurbs about the engines seem to be talking about stand alone fuel efficiency gains in the 5-10% range - couple those gains with gains from aerodynamics, transmissions and weight loss and we'll have some very fuel efficient cars coming soon. I wonder if the new Accord gets the CVT. Combine a 5% more efficient engine with a 10% more efficient CVT...that's a 39 mpg highway rated Accord if the claims are true.

Thanks for the info Jeff. So next week we'll be hearing/seeing more of your thoughts?



Yes, I will share some impressions but don't expect too much depth in them beyond a few comments. We had VERY limited opportunities to sample the technology. Honda is hosting hundreds(?) of journalists from all over the world this week so track time was very limited.
Art of Snow
Profile for Art of Snow
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-30-2011 04:13
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Jeff wrote:I was told that the 2.2L i-DTEC diesel was going to be replaced by the 1.6L i-DTEC.

Replace the 2.2 i-DTEC?

Having the 1.6 i-DTEC makes perfect sense for cars of the size of the Civic or as an entry level engine for the Accord. Yet, I know that they are planning to introduce a 1.6 i-DTEC 2WD CR-V in Europe, I believe that this engine is a bit small for the Accord or the CR-V. They need to keep a higher output diesel engine for those cars if they want to compete with the others (most of the compact SUV's here in Europe provide now diesel engines in the 170-200hp range ... that a 1.6 engine cannot provide).
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-30-2011 05:48
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Art of Snow wrote:
Jeff wrote:I was told that the 2.2L i-DTEC diesel was going to be replaced by the 1.6L i-DTEC.

Replace the 2.2 i-DTEC?

Having the 1.6 i-DTEC makes perfect sense for cars of the size of the Civic or as an entry level engine for the Accord. Yet, I know that they are planning to introduce a 1.6 i-DTEC 2WD CR-V in Europe, I believe that this engine is a bit small for the Accord or the CR-V. They need to keep a higher output diesel engine for those cars if they want to compete with the others (most of the compact SUV's here in Europe provide now diesel engines in the 170-200hp range ... that a 1.6 engine cannot provide).


Yeah, I don't think that part was accurate, because Honda spent too much effort in improving the 2.2l that has just been presented on the 9th eurk civic.

It may at some point replace it on Civic, but I don't buy it for Accord / CR-V class of vehicles.

IMHO something got lost in translation
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-30-2011 06:21
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
CarPhreakD wrote:
Potenza wrote:
iutodd wrote:
Potenza wrote:
Jeff wrote:
The 1.8L engine seems to use the most of the various technologies, which makes me wonder which car Honda is planning to use it in. DOHC with DUAL VTC, atkinson + Power VTEC, tubular exhaust manifold (this was the only engine on display that didn't have a cast-in exhaust manifold)

I was wondering that myself. The info panel says "over 148hp."

It can't really be the Fit, because that would mean more horsepower than the Civic.

Surely not enough horsepower for the Accord.

But Civic? That already makes 140hp with a SOHC and no DI and is rated up to 41mpg.


Fit Si?...

So...what would be wrong with a more powerful, more efficient regular Civic? 150 hp, 135 lb-ft and 45+ mpg highway sound pretty good to me. And a Fit Si with that engine would be very nice indeed. It also says that this 1.8L engine has a completely new architecture so I wonder if the R18 is going away?

Nothing wrong, in theory. But a whole new architecture for 8hp and 5 ft/lbs? DI adds cost and DOHC adds weight...


It would not hurt as an uplevel EX trim. More likely, the "baby Acura" will get it.

my bet would go on an EX civic as far as the US goes, in Japan it could power nearly everything (accord, cr-v, step-wgn, etc.) basically I see it as a replacement for the current R20.

Btw, I think some of you are missing the point that DI and DOHC are there mainly to enable Atkinson operation, not for performance... Looking at the Prius, a 1.8L Honda atkinson engine in 2012-2013 should be able to get close to a 50mpg highway rating ... (high 40's for sure), while everything else (including VTEC and the tubular exhaust manifold) ensuring you get ~2.0L performance instead of the prius engine 1.3 - 1.5L one ...

Sounds good for me :)
adrianchew
Profile for adrianchew
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-30-2011 07:06
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Jeff wrote:

Honda is being very coy about the power and torque ratings. I think they have simply chosen some numbers of a few competitors to say that the new engines will simply be "more than" those guys.


How they'll be able to say, outdo a 2L turbo of the competition, with a 2L Earth Dreams engine, I can't see happening.

An "earth dream" powertrain that is designed for a fun or sporty car will be designed to deliver the "fun and sporty" attributes along with class leading efficiency.


Yes - just like the CR-Z then? Fun and sporty and efficient will always involve compromises... and the technology changes are making it harder for the aftermarket to overcome these performance compromises, made in the name of efficiency.
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-30-2011 07:11
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
danielgr wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Potenza wrote:
iutodd wrote:
Potenza wrote:
Jeff wrote:
The 1.8L engine seems to use the most of the various technologies, which makes me wonder which car Honda is planning to use it in. DOHC with DUAL VTC, atkinson + Power VTEC, tubular exhaust manifold (this was the only engine on display that didn't have a cast-in exhaust manifold)

I was wondering that myself. The info panel says "over 148hp."

It can't really be the Fit, because that would mean more horsepower than the Civic.

Surely not enough horsepower for the Accord.

But Civic? That already makes 140hp with a SOHC and no DI and is rated up to 41mpg.


Fit Si?...

So...what would be wrong with a more powerful, more efficient regular Civic? 150 hp, 135 lb-ft and 45+ mpg highway sound pretty good to me. And a Fit Si with that engine would be very nice indeed. It also says that this 1.8L engine has a completely new architecture so I wonder if the R18 is going away?

Nothing wrong, in theory. But a whole new architecture for 8hp and 5 ft/lbs? DI adds cost and DOHC adds weight...


It would not hurt as an uplevel EX trim. More likely, the "baby Acura" will get it.

my bet would go on an EX civic as far as the US goes, in Japan it could power nearly everything (accord, cr-v, step-wgn, etc.) basically I see it as a replacement for the current R20.

Btw, I think some of you are missing the point that DI and DOHC are there mainly to enable Atkinson operation, not for performance... Looking at the Prius, a 1.8L Honda atkinson engine in 2012-2013 should be able to get close to a 50mpg highway rating ... (high 40's for sure), while everything else (including VTEC and the tubular exhaust manifold) ensuring you get ~2.0L performance instead of the prius engine 1.3 - 1.5L one ...

Sounds good for me :)


forgot to say, contrary to Jeff I don't think there is much more perf coming than what is stated there. It might be 150 or 155 but I don't think it'll be 160 or 170.

More importantly to me is the fact that this is a new foundation on which Honda will build in the future. It's a gen1 product of a new formula Honda will for sure refine during the next decade...

That is, at least, how I see it.
Fan Koni
Profile for Fan Koni
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-30-2011 07:45
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
I don't know but is Honda basically replacing all engines?

The L,R&K engines get replaced (DOHC &...) & the J updated. But all with DI so specially the J is sure to get turbos bolted on. Maybe the new 2.4 as well.

The 1.8 workhorse is probably something like BMWs 1.6T - depending on setup the eco or the sporty variant - great for all EU/JDM civics, streams... probably in the NA civic soon too.

Same for the 2.4 - similar to the BMW 2.0T? Good for all midsized products in eco & sporty.

The 2.0 is just eco to be made in hybrid setups?

Anyhow it looks like Honda has made a major stepping stone to be more flexible from engine trims.
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-30-2011 08:28
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Fan Koni wrote:
I don't know but is Honda basically replacing all engines?

The L,R&K engines get replaced (DOHC &...) & the J updated. But all with DI so specially the J is sure to get turbos bolted on. Maybe the new 2.4 as well.

The 1.8 workhorse is probably something like BMWs 1.6T - depending on setup the eco or the sporty variant - great for all EU/JDM civics, streams... probably in the NA civic soon too.

Same for the 2.4 - similar to the BMW 2.0T? Good for all midsized products in eco & sporty.

The 2.0 is just eco to be made in hybrid setups?

Anyhow it looks like Honda has made a major stepping stone to be more flexible from engine trims.


people keep talking turbos for IMHO no reason.

we'll see if I'm wrong but I don't see any turbos coming. There might be a niche here and there (like the previous Gen RDX or the rumored euro civic hot civic), but never on a wide global scale.

Honda's boost is going to come from electric motors which, contrary to turbos, are the perfect match for Atkinson cycle engines.

I'm all open for bets on this one... Turbos remain too complex and not good enoughoverall, plus way outside of Hondas core techs and for sure a patent minefield where they would need to rely on everyone's shopping basket. That has never been the Honda way and I don't think it's going to change anytime soon
Mr. Taggart
Profile for Mr. Taggart
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-30-2011 09:51
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
So Honda has developed engine technologies to lower carbon dioxide emissions right? So they have spent untold amounts of money because of a hoax? Good business decision. And for all of you AGW believers if it wasn't a hoax why all of the lies, coverups, and document destruction let alone the fact that temperatures for the last decade have declined.

And instead of explaining to the consumer that in real world use Honda gets higher gas mileage than their competitors they have to gin up a bunch of new technologies so they can game the EPA test like everyone else.

Let's also not forget the capitalization by introducing plug in vehicles which do nothing to reduced the hated greenhouse gas as most of the power in the US is still coal fired.

On the product side the four banger is going in the NSX replacement with the electric rear wheels hence the press release mention of V8 performance with 4 cyl gas mileage. Think s2000 with sh-awd and another hundred ponies.
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-30-2011 11:04
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Mr. Taggart wrote:
So Honda has developed engine technologies to lower carbon dioxide emissions right? So they have spent untold amounts of money because of a hoax? Good business decision. And for all of you AGW believers if it wasn't a hoax why all of the lies, coverups, and document destruction let alone the fact that temperatures for the last decade have declined.

And instead of explaining to the consumer that in real world use Honda gets higher gas mileage than their competitors they have to gin up a bunch of new technologies so they can game the EPA test like everyone else.

Let's also not forget the capitalization by introducing plug in vehicles which do nothing to reduced the hated greenhouse gas as most of the power in the US is still coal fired.

On the product side the four banger is going in the NSX replacement with the electric rear wheels hence the press release mention of V8 performance with 4 cyl gas mileage. Think s2000 with sh-awd and another hundred ponies.


I will not discuss on your beliefs nor mine, but:

1) Right now it makes business sense to bet on "green-tech", which is why "everyone is betting on it". Whether or not it'll save the planet who cares, people is increasingly ready to pay for it in most places around the world, i.e. it's the future.

2) You missed the point on the sports system. It will:
- Use a V6 and, thanks to the electric part, deliver:
- V8-like performance
- I4 fuel economy
Mr. Taggart
Profile for Mr. Taggart
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-30-2011 11:45
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
danielgr wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
So Honda has developed engine technologies to lower carbon dioxide emissions right? So they have spent untold amounts of money because of a hoax? Good business decision. And for all of you AGW believers if it wasn't a hoax why all of the lies, coverups, and document destruction let alone the fact that temperatures for the last decade have declined.

And instead of explaining to the consumer that in real world use Honda gets higher gas mileage than their competitors they have to gin up a bunch of new technologies so they can game the EPA test like everyone else.

Let's also not forget the capitalization by introducing plug in vehicles which do nothing to reduced the hated greenhouse gas as most of the power in the US is still coal fired.

On the product side the four banger is going in the NSX replacement with the electric rear wheels hence the press release mention of V8 performance with 4 cyl gas mileage. Think s2000 with sh-awd and another hundred ponies.


I will not discuss on your beliefs nor mine, but:

1) Right now it makes business sense to bet on "green-tech", which is why "everyone is betting on it". Whether or not it'll save the planet who cares, people is increasingly ready to pay for it in most places around the world, i.e. it's the future.

2) You missed the point on the sports system. It will:
- Use a V6 and, thanks to the electric part, deliver:
- V8-like performance
- I4 fuel economy




Yeah people are lining up to pay for green tech alright. I saw people camped outside the local Chevy dealer to buy a Volt - before it catches on fire.

Same thing for Nissan to buy a leaf.

If people were willing to pay for it there would be no need for subsidies would there? Oh, that's right there is a huge premium to purchase 'green' vehicles.


How willing are the BRIC countries consumers willing to pay for these technologies?

What percentage of a price increase for the other places in the world? Did consumers choose to or where they forced to because of government regulations, like you know the one in England that says water does not hydrate?

Sources please?

How are EV's 'green' when they rely on 'non green' sources to generate the power?

Besides we are all paying for it for all of the increased waste products associated with making 'green' products like solar panels and batteries, which are not included in the purchase price. Is an increase in toxic waste less important than the carbon dioxide in the atmoshpere?

And as mentioned Li batteries are a perfectly safe and proven technologies. They have NEVER brought down a UPS 747, ingnited in a persons lap while a plane decended, or have never caught fire after a serious accident.

And let's not confuse 'green' with sustainable. It is fine to want to find ways to extract the most use out of a material instead of just dumping in a landfill.

'Green' is just a code word for getting away from fossil fuels of all types, oil, oil sands, and natural gas. Let's not play word games. This has been happening since the 70's under a bunch of different names.

If all automakers were worried about if an when fossil fuels run out they would be investing in fuel cell technologies like Honda.



And I am not stating beliefs but facts:
People lied
People doctored data
People destroyed evidence
People mislead others
Poeple profited handsomely from the above and continue to
The temperature has decreased since 2000.

Get back to me when you can predict the temperature of every major city for tomorrow, the amount of cloud cover, and the amount of precipitation. Then we can talk beliefs because you will have a demonstrated model to try and convince me with.


danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-30-2011 11:59
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Mr. Taggart wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
So Honda has developed engine technologies to lower carbon dioxide emissions right? So they have spent untold amounts of money because of a hoax? Good business decision. And for all of you AGW believers if it wasn't a hoax why all of the lies, coverups, and document destruction let alone the fact that temperatures for the last decade have declined.

And instead of explaining to the consumer that in real world use Honda gets higher gas mileage than their competitors they have to gin up a bunch of new technologies so they can game the EPA test like everyone else.

Let's also not forget the capitalization by introducing plug in vehicles which do nothing to reduced the hated greenhouse gas as most of the power in the US is still coal fired.

On the product side the four banger is going in the NSX replacement with the electric rear wheels hence the press release mention of V8 performance with 4 cyl gas mileage. Think s2000 with sh-awd and another hundred ponies.


I will not discuss on your beliefs nor mine, but:

1) Right now it makes business sense to bet on "green-tech", which is why "everyone is betting on it". Whether or not it'll save the planet who cares, people is increasingly ready to pay for it in most places around the world, i.e. it's the future.

2) You missed the point on the sports system. It will:
- Use a V6 and, thanks to the electric part, deliver:
- V8-like performance
- I4 fuel economy




Yeah people are lining up to pay for green tech alright. I saw people camped outside the local Chevy dealer to buy a Volt - before it catches on fire.

Same thing for Nissan to buy a leaf.

If people were willing to pay for it there would be no need for subsidies would there? Oh, that's right there is a huge premium to purchase 'green' vehicles.


How willing are the BRIC countries consumers willing to pay for these technologies?

What percentage of a price increase for the other places in the world? Did consumers choose to or where they forced to because of government regulations, like you know the one in England that says water does not hydrate?

Sources please?

How are EV's 'green' when they rely on 'non green' sources to generate the power?

Besides we are all paying for it for all of the increased waste products associated with making 'green' products like solar panels and batteries, which are not included in the purchase price. Is an increase in toxic waste less important than the carbon dioxide in the atmoshpere?

And as mentioned Li batteries are a perfectly safe and proven technologies. They have NEVER brought down a UPS 747, ingnited in a persons lap while a plane decended, or have never caught fire after a serious accident.

And let's not confuse 'green' with sustainable. It is fine to want to find ways to extract the most use out of a material instead of just dumping in a landfill.

'Green' is just a code word for getting away from fossil fuels of all types, oil, oil sands, and natural gas. Let's not play word games. This has been happening since the 70's under a bunch of different names.

If all automakers were worried about if an when fossil fuels run out they would be investing in fuel cell technologies like Honda.



And I am not stating beliefs but facts:
People lied
People doctored data
People destroyed evidence
People mislead others
Poeple profited handsomely from the above and continue to
The temperature has decreased since 2000.

Get back to me when you can predict the temperature of every major city for tomorrow, the amount of cloud cover, and the amount of precipitation. Then we can talk beliefs because you will have a demonstrated model to try and convince me with.
Who was talking about EVs or the Volt?

I'm talking about :
- Automakers in the US fighting for delivering class leading FE on all cars, bragging about 40mpg figures, etc.
- Europeans getting crazy about FE like never before, with expensive and fast cars having hard times selling, all BMW's having idle-stop for years, diesels having taken over most markets, engine downsizing being pushed to the extreme (V8-> V6 -> i4 -> i3 -> i2), and all kinds of taxes and stuff that goes together. Hey, did you know that 2011 International Engine of the Year award was handled to a 2 cylinder? (link); not so long ago BMW's would top that list.
- JP hybrid share reaching close to 50% in 2012
- oil barrel consistently above 80 USD, constantly flirting with the 100 USD barrier.

And above all, I was talking about the future.
Now have a look at Tokyo motorshow, or LA, or Frankfurt, or Beijing, Shanghai, whatever you want. Do you really think they are all wrong on what kind of business lies ahead?


Potenza
Profile for Potenza
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-30-2011 12:24
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
danielgr wrote:
people keep talking turbos for IMHO no reason.

we'll see if I'm wrong but I don't see any turbos coming. There might be a niche here and there (like the previous Gen RDX or the rumored euro civic hot civic), but never on a wide global scale.

Honda's boost is going to come from electric motors which, contrary to turbos, are the perfect match for Atkinson cycle engines.

I'm all open for bets on this one... Turbos remain too complex and not good enoughoverall, plus way outside of Hondas core techs and for sure a patent minefield where they would need to rely on everyone's shopping basket. That has never been the Honda way and I don't think it's going to change anytime soon

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the new N Box - the first vehicle to implement Earth Dreams technology - have an available turbo? I thought I read that. If so, could that be an indicator of the future?
Varmint
Profile for Varmint
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-30-2011 12:55
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Mr. Taggart wrote:
And as mentioned Li batteries are a perfectly safe and proven technologies. They have NEVER brought down a UPS 747, ignited in a persons lap while a plane descended, or have never caught fire after a serious accident.

You know what else never blows up? Gasoline.
Mr. Taggart
Profile for Mr. Taggart
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-30-2011 13:02
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Varmint wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
And as mentioned Li batteries are a perfectly safe and proven technologies. They have NEVER brought down a UPS 747, ignited in a persons lap while a plane descended, or have never caught fire after a serious accident.

You know what else never blows up? Gasoline.



How many times has gasoline blew up in somebody's lap, or been cargo on an airplane and then blew up? Nice strawman. Guess what oxygen is part of the air we breathe and we still put it into tires right?
Mr. Taggart
Profile for Mr. Taggart
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-30-2011 13:11
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
danielgr wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
So Honda has developed engine technologies to lower carbon dioxide emissions right? So they have spent untold amounts of money because of a hoax? Good business decision. And for all of you AGW believers if it wasn't a hoax why all of the lies, coverups, and document destruction let alone the fact that temperatures for the last decade have declined.

And instead of explaining to the consumer that in real world use Honda gets higher gas mileage than their competitors they have to gin up a bunch of new technologies so they can game the EPA test like everyone else.

Let's also not forget the capitalization by introducing plug in vehicles which do nothing to reduced the hated greenhouse gas as most of the power in the US is still coal fired.

On the product side the four banger is going in the NSX replacement with the electric rear wheels hence the press release mention of V8 performance with 4 cyl gas mileage. Think s2000 with sh-awd and another hundred ponies.


I will not discuss on your beliefs nor mine, but:

1) Right now it makes business sense to bet on "green-tech", which is why "everyone is betting on it". Whether or not it'll save the planet who cares, people is increasingly ready to pay for it in most places around the world, i.e. it's the future.

2) You missed the point on the sports system. It will:
- Use a V6 and, thanks to the electric part, deliver:
- V8-like performance
- I4 fuel economy




Yeah people are lining up to pay for green tech alright. I saw people camped outside the local Chevy dealer to buy a Volt - before it catches on fire.

Same thing for Nissan to buy a leaf.

If people were willing to pay for it there would be no need for subsidies would there? Oh, that's right there is a huge premium to purchase 'green' vehicles.


How willing are the BRIC countries consumers willing to pay for these technologies?

What percentage of a price increase for the other places in the world? Did consumers choose to or where they forced to because of government regulations, like you know the one in England that says water does not hydrate?

Sources please?

How are EV's 'green' when they rely on 'non green' sources to generate the power?

Besides we are all paying for it for all of the increased waste products associated with making 'green' products like solar panels and batteries, which are not included in the purchase price. Is an increase in toxic waste less important than the carbon dioxide in the atmoshpere?

And as mentioned Li batteries are a perfectly safe and proven technologies. They have NEVER brought down a UPS 747, ingnited in a persons lap while a plane decended, or have never caught fire after a serious accident.

And let's not confuse 'green' with sustainable. It is fine to want to find ways to extract the most use out of a material instead of just dumping in a landfill.

'Green' is just a code word for getting away from fossil fuels of all types, oil, oil sands, and natural gas. Let's not play word games. This has been happening since the 70's under a bunch of different names.

If all automakers were worried about if an when fossil fuels run out they would be investing in fuel cell technologies like Honda.



And I am not stating beliefs but facts:
People lied
People doctored data
People destroyed evidence
People mislead others
Poeple profited handsomely from the above and continue to
The temperature has decreased since 2000.

Get back to me when you can predict the temperature of every major city for tomorrow, the amount of cloud cover, and the amount of precipitation. Then we can talk beliefs because you will have a demonstrated model to try and convince me with.
Who was talking about EVs or the Volt?

I'm talking about :
- Automakers in the US fighting for delivering class leading FE on all cars, bragging about 40mpg figures, etc.
- Europeans getting crazy about FE like never before, with expensive and fast cars having hard times selling, all BMW's having idle-stop for years, diesels having taken over most markets, engine downsizing being pushed to the extreme (V8-> V6 -> i4 -> i3 -> i2), and all kinds of taxes and stuff that goes together. Hey, did you know that 2011 International Engine of the Year award was handled to a 2 cylinder? (link); not so long ago BMW's would top that list.
- JP hybrid share reaching close to 50% in 2012
- oil barrel consistently above 80 USD, constantly flirting with the 100 USD barrier.

And above all, I was talking about the future.
Now have a look at Tokyo motorshow, or LA, or Frankfurt, or Beijing, Shanghai, whatever you want. Do you really think they are all wrong on what kind of business lies ahead?






Gunny YOU used the words "green-tech" which the Volt and Leaf are supposed be leading edge tech so they are relevant.


Once again where's your proof that people are willing to pay for green technologies? Guess what, Spain gambled on going 'green' to drive the economy and the economy took a dump. Why would that be if green was so great?

As to the rest of your drivel automakers are not doing this because they want to because the see value in such a green future, they are being forced into by government regulations and taxation. You think BMW really wanted to produce four bangers in the 3 series? Everyone is not betting on it, they are being frog marched to it by governments who impose regulations based on fallacies and outright lies.

There is no connection between the price of oil and the amount of government burden placed on car companies to reach fuel economy standards that make no sense. Btw, diesel is only popular in Europe due to taxes on gasoline. Which is a dirtier engine, diesels or gas?




h2power
Profile for h2power
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-30-2011 13:50
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Mr. Taggart wrote:
Varmint wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
And as mentioned Li batteries are a perfectly safe and proven technologies. They have NEVER brought down a UPS 747, ignited in a persons lap while a plane descended, or have never caught fire after a serious accident.

You know what else never blows up? Gasoline.



How many times has gasoline blew up in somebody's lap, or been cargo on an airplane and then blew up? Nice strawman. Guess what oxygen is part of the air we breathe and we still put it into tires right?



Two words: Ford Pinto

Nice tirade.
Varmint
Profile for Varmint
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-30-2011 13:51
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Mr. Taggart wrote:
How many times has gasoline blew up in somebody's lap, or been cargo on an airplane and then blew up? Nice strawman. Guess what oxygen is part of the air we breathe and we still put it into tires right?

How many times has a LIon-powered car blown up in someone's lap?

I'm sorry but I assumed you were trying to make a point about the use of batteries as a power source for cars. Your post suggested to me that you believe LIon batteries are unsafe - specifically explosive. If that is not your point, then bring up exploding batteries in a person's lap is non sequitur. We're talking 'bout cars, here.
Mr. Taggart
Profile for Mr. Taggart
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-30-2011 14:15
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Varmint wrote:
Mr. Taggart wrote:
How many times has gasoline blew up in somebody's lap, or been cargo on an airplane and then blew up? Nice strawman. Guess what oxygen is part of the air we breathe and we still put it into tires right?

How many times has a LIon-powered car blown up in someone's lap?

I'm sorry but I assumed you were trying to make a point about the use of batteries as a power source for cars. Your post suggested to me that you believe LIon batteries are unsafe - specifically explosive. If that is not your point, then bring up exploding batteries in a person's lap is non sequitur. We're talking 'bout cars, here.




Lion's are unsafe, and proving to be unstable and no one seems to know what condition or conditions cause it. Laptops have burned up, iPhones have caught fire, the most recent during decent to the airport yesterday. Link:http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/257846/20111129/iphone-catches-aboard-aircraft.htm

I have personally had an iPhone 3GS get so hot that it melted the case to the phone. Luckily I was no where near it when it happened but the smoke and or heat set off one of my fire alarms.

A UPS flight was brought down by them. Link:http://www.centreforaviation.com/news/lithium-batteries-blamed-for-fatal-ups-crash-96552


See the recent Volt that blew up after being tested by the NHSTA. See link:http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-11/gm-volt-battery-fire-is-said-to-prompt-u-s-probe-into-electric-car-safety.html Had this not occurred in a Government Motors vehicle championed by the annointed one as the future of transportation, all of the Volt's would be off of the road by now until they can figure out why this is happening.

Lion's are known to have stability issues and once again no one knows why. Would you be willing to drive a car that is packed with theses batteries when there is not any insight as to why and when they burst into flames? Are you concerned that after a good period of post crash time a Volt decided to spontaneously combust?

Technology is good but it seems like we are rushing ahead with possible unproven technologies. And to the lap point the batteries aren't on you lap but buried in the vehicle so will there be an opporitunity to get out in time?
iceman6
Profile for iceman6
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-30-2011 17:34
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Jeff -- thank you so much for posting this news. I am actually pretty encouraged by what I see here. Something for everyone, even people who want fast cars with big engines.
Varmint
Profile for Varmint
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-30-2011 17:38
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
One quick google search and...

http://gizmodo.com/5833871/burning-car-explodes-right-on-firefighters-face

http://www.tmz.com/2011/03/18/meet-the-browns-writer-car-explodes-dodge-journey-fire-hollywood-hills-tyler-perry-recall/

http://gothamist.com/2011/11/08/video_giant_fireball_on_jersey_turn.php

Gas explodes, too. My iphone hasn't melted down, but I had a Briggs & Strat lawn mower go toasty. My buddy had a Stihl turn into a torch while it was running and still in his hands. (Eat your heart out, Leatherface!) But, once again, this is all non sequitur since we're talking about cars. Cars have more robust safety measures and people seldom take them as carry-on luggage.

The only difference between a gas car exploding and an LIon car doing the same is that you are already familiar with the risk when it comes to gas. When gas-powered cars were first mass-produced, people accustomed to electrics could not believe that anyone would ride with such an explosive substance on board. It wasn't until the electric starter motor that people felt the convenience (no more cranking) made it worth taking the risk for gas cars. Seems silly now, but they were that freaked out about gasoline.

The simple truth is that any new design brings risks with it. (Yes, even traditional gas designs... remember the 2003 CR-Vs catching on fire?) You don't declare one design unsafe and stop developing it because there have been incidents. Think about that. If you support that kind of thinking, then you'd have to support the climate change scientists on the basis of the risk being too great and the issue of climate change not being fully understood.
jgalvan
Profile for jgalvan
Re: Some interesting points to note [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-30-2011 19:09
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Varmint wrote:
One quick google search and...

http://gizmodo.com/5833871/burning-car-explodes-right-on-firefighters-face

http://www.tmz.com/2011/03/18/meet-the-browns-writer-car-explodes-dodge-journey-fire-hollywood-hills-tyler-perry-recall/

http://gothamist.com/2011/11/08/video_giant_fireball_on_jersey_turn.php

Gas explodes, too. My iphone hasn't melted down, but I had a Briggs & Strat lawn mower go toasty. My buddy had a Stihl turn into a torch while it was running and still in his hands. (Eat your heart out, Leatherface!) But, once again, this is all non sequitur since we're talking about cars. Cars have more robust safety measures and people seldom take them as carry-on luggage.

The only difference between a gas car exploding and an LIon car doing the same is that you are already familiar with the risk when it comes to gas. When gas-powered cars were first mass-produced, people accustomed to electrics could not believe that anyone would ride with such an explosive substance on board. It wasn't until the electric starter motor that people felt the convenience (no more cranking) made it worth taking the risk for gas cars. Seems silly now, but they were that freaked out about gasoline.

The simple truth is that any new design brings risks with it. (Yes, even traditional gas designs... remember the 2003 CR-Vs catching on fire?) You don't declare one design unsafe and stop developing it because there have been incidents. Think about that. If you support that kind of thinking, then you'd have to support the climate change scientists on the basis of the risk being too great and the issue of climate change not being fully understood.




Wrong.

The difference is you expect gasoline to ignite given a certain stoichiometric ratio. You don't expect Lion batteries to explode. Can you tell us what causes conditions for them to explode? If there are so many robust safety features for Lion batteries in cars then they shouldn't be any explosions right? Especially three weeks or longer after a crash. How many of your articles show cars blowing up a month after the fact?


Any for trying to straw man the CR-V fires it was quickly diagnosed as human error, but Honda went ahead with a change. The CR-V fires were caused by oil hitting hot exhaust pipes.

Hase anyone ever diagnosed what has caused Lion batteries to burst into flames? Do you think that the pilots of the 747 that went down felt there was a risk for the Lion batteries to burst into flames? If you have advanced knowledge on what causes it do share.

Your last comment makes no sense and you must not understand. I find funny that the NHSTA has NEVER had a Lion battery explode in tests with ANY other hybrid it has tested. Do YOU want to risk being the test dummy if there is a possibility that this could be a design flaw in the vehicle? Would you want your family to ride in one?


And there is an order of magnitude in size difference between a phone and a car, so the potential to cause serious injury is quite higher.

The risk for using gas in a car is well known. The risk of having Lion batteries is not.

The lawyers will have a field day with this. Remember when an auto maker got sued because it put the gas tanks outside the frame rails? The truck passed all safety regulations at the time, yet the automaker got sued because it was safer to put them inside the frame rails. Guess what, the automaker lost and lost big.

I stand by my original point that if it were not government motors and the annointed ones pet project Volts would not being sold unitl they figure out what caused the fire. They have put stop sale orders on cars for much less than this.
 
Thread Page - [1] 2
Contact TOV | Submit Your Article | Submit Your Link | Advertise | TOV Shop | Events | Our Sponsors | TOV Archives
Copyright © 2014 Velocitech Inc. All information contained herein remains the property of Velocitech Inc.
The Temple of VTEC is not affiliated with American Honda Motor Co., Inc. TOV Policies and Guidelines - Credits - Privacy Policy
mobile: 0