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duncan
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longhorn wrote:
danielgr wrote:
iceman6 wrote:
danielgr wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
I guess I'm the only one here that thinks that 4 different sized sedans can exist in the Acura portfolio. A great example would be Audi. They have the A3 hatch, A4, A6 and A8 which are all pretty easy to identify in terms of size. What I don't understand is why it's so hard for Acura to size each model accordingly. It's not rocket science.
RL = Audi A8
TL = Audi A6
TSX = Audi A4
RSX= Audi A3
[...]
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1st) I'm just theoritizing on the "hypothesis" that "one of the Acura sedans is going out. I'm not saying "it will", just that "providing those rumours are truth", I believe this is what would happen.
2nd) Something is wrong with your example. You realize yourself that the A3 is a hatch, and yet you pretend to set an example about "there is room for 4 sedans". The fact is there are not many manufacturers making 4 luxo sedans around... (BMW has 3 + 5 + 7 series, Audi has A4, A6, A8; Mercedes has C, E, and S series; Infinitiy has G and M series; Lexus has 4 but many do believe GS and LS are redundant, and Toyota can certainly do whatever they please...)
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The next A3 will also be a sedan.
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/spied/11q3/2013_audi_a3_spy_photos-future_cars
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Btw, funny that Audi has a hard time selling the A6 in the US (about as much as a hard time Toyota has selling the GS). That said, obviously the two world automobile giants can afford to accumulate slow-selling cars for whatever purpose; wonder though how well can the small guys like Honda (or Nissan) play at that game...
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In regards to Audi, they are not chasing volume in the US and has gone on record stating such. There are waiting lists for a number of their vehicles here in the states (which would include the A6), not bad for a brand pushing FWD platforms with AWD options to be a brand to aspire too.
By the way.........love the new A6 interior......better than BMW and MB.
Back to Acura, I am curios when this sub TSX will arrive. Some state it would have been this fall if weren't for the quake. Some are stating early next year, and some are stating a 2012 intro. So which is correct? I would not fault Acura for waiting to 2012 since they will be debuting a new RDX and MDX next year. And 2012 would be the last year of production for the present TSX,so it would dove tail nicely as a replacement vehicle.
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BMW and MB have no trouble selling the 5 Series and the E Class respectively. That their competitors haven't fared as well with their own products (A6, GS, M37/57 etc) is probably more a reflection on these individual products and not so much on the class itself. I've also already seen quite a few A7s on streets around the GTA, certainly more than I have seen the brand new A6, so all may not be lost for Audi in this regard. And considering the CLS has been a decent seller for MB, I would have to conclude the market for midsize lux sedans in NA is definitely viable.
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Nick GravesX
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I think that's becoming a world phenomenon; M-B & BMW practically own the E1 segment these days.
I would suggest the A7 or CLS (or XJ) is the sort of car Acura might have more success with - something a bit different.
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longhorn
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Nick Graves wrote:
I think that's becoming a world phenomenon; M-B & BMW practically own the E1 segment these days.
I would suggest the A7 or CLS (or XJ) is the sort of car Acura might have more success with - something a bit different.
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Someone did post a rumor here that the next RL will go the four door coupe route.
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TonyEX
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The issue is than in NA, the TL is a MUCH BETTER VALUE than the RL.
With the dollar as it is, producing and selling an RL that is 5 series sized, also incurs a 5 series price. ie: up into the high 50Ks.
The TL, OTOH, built in NA, is sold for a lot less. If offers 5 series level of size and performance but at a 3 series price range.
IMHO, it's the RL that is the problem in NA. Either they push it up market with a large wheelbase or they just can it and ship the TL worldwide as its replacement. Production of the TL/RL in NA is much more profitable than in Japan.
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danielgr
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TonyE wrote:
The issue is than in NA, the TL is a MUCH BETTER VALUE than the RL.
With the dollar as it is, producing and selling an RL that is 5 series sized, also incurs a 5 series price. ie: up into the high 50Ks.
The TL, OTOH, built in NA, is sold for a lot less. If offers 5 series level of size and performance but at a 3 series price range.
IMHO, it's the RL that is the problem in NA. Either they push it up market with a large wheelbase or they just can it and ship the TL worldwide as its replacement. Production of the TL/RL in NA is much more profitable than in Japan.
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I don't think both TSX and RL will remain exclusively JP-produced if things are as I guessed they will.
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DevilMayCry
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TonyE wrote:
The issue is than in NA, the TL is a MUCH BETTER VALUE than the RL.
With the dollar as it is, producing and selling an RL that is 5 series sized, also incurs a 5 series price. ie: up into the high 50Ks.
The TL, OTOH, built in NA, is sold for a lot less. If offers 5 series level of size and performance but at a 3 series price range.
IMHO, it's the RL that is the problem in NA. Either they push it up market with a large wheelbase or they just can it and ship the TL worldwide as its replacement. Production of the TL/RL in NA is much more profitable than in Japan.
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That, my friend, is the Gospel!
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TSXmeister
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Acura needs to phase out the RL its just not selling very well. October 2011 sales report posted shows the RL only sold 22 units and with its high price tag nobody wants to buy it.
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sadlerau
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DevilMayCry wrote:
TonyE wrote:
The issue is than in NA, the TL is a MUCH BETTER VALUE than the RL.
With the dollar as it is, producing and selling an RL that is 5 series sized, also incurs a 5 series price. ie: up into the high 50Ks.
The TL, OTOH, built in NA, is sold for a lot less. If offers 5 series level of size and performance but at a 3 series price range.
IMHO, it's the RL that is the problem in NA. Either they push it up market with a large wheelbase or they just can it and ship the TL worldwide as its replacement. Production of the TL/RL in NA is much more profitable than in Japan.
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That, my friend, is the Gospel!
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It may be gospel, but with looks like the TL has, it ain't gonna sell anywhere outside of north America. :(
How can I put this politely? It has the looks only an American [and not many of them] could love? :)
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lexusgs
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TSXmeister wrote:
Acura needs to phase out the RL its just not selling very well. October 2011 sales report posted shows the RL only sold 22 units and with its high price tag nobody wants to buy it.
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How about instead of giving up, throwing in the towel, and admitting failure by killing it off they just come out with a new version that is better and more competitive with newer competition. The RL is not a bad car at all, it is excellent in many aspects especially the interior but any car not updated enough is going to suffer sales wise. Giving up is not a very good strategy and would most likely hurt Acura's image more. Acura needs a flagship sedan and definitely something above a TL.
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6SPDTL
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The acura line up is crap. The TSX is essentially a bone stock european accord, BMW doesnt sell a bone stock 3 series here thats why they can charge premium while the TSX simply comes across at what it is a smaller accord.
The TL is significantly modified US accord so it makes sense to stay particularly SHAWD.
THe RL is a non competitive dinosaur that should die. Honda should get it through its head the a premuim division, should be premium, if they can't offer a better product (and the division loses money) they should kill it, done. If they hadnt F&*&^%@ up the TL so thoroughly we wouldnt be having this conversation! Part of the problem is the Japanese corporate culture thing of always kowtowing to the head honcho EVEN when he is wrong!! When the TL design was done at least someone should have raised their hand and said Jesus that looks like SHIT instead of simply politely applauding as all the other morons around.
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superchg
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6SPDTL, the MDX is a pretty solid mid-size luxury crossover SUV, and there are a few other good cars, so I would not agree that the entire Acura line up is crap.
Also, I don't think using Jesus name when you are venting is necessary or appropriate.
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sadlerau
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6SPDTL wrote:
The RL is a non competitive dinosaur that should die. |
That dinosaur was more than competitve for the first couple of years of it's sales run. Even made Car & Driver's Ten Best List. The real problem is Honda is not committed enough to keeping the model fresh during it's model run!
Now where have we heard that before ..................
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6SPDTL
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You can exchange it for any deity you wish, Holy Mohammed, Yaweh, Budda, Rah, Santa Claus :)
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revvin
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sadlerau wrote:
6SPDTL wrote:
The RL is a non competitive dinosaur that should die. |
That dinosaur was more than competitve for the first couple of years of it's sales run. Even made Car & Driver's Ten Best List. The real problem is Honda is not committed enough to keeping the model fresh during it's model run!
Now where have we heard that before ..................
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ugh. i'm looking over at the nissan camp and their gtr is on it's 3rd update in 5 years, now up to 545hp with the price creep.
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owequitit
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6SPDTL wrote:
The acura line up is crap. The TSX is essentially a bone stock european accord, BMW doesnt sell a bone stock 3 series here thats why they can charge premium while the TSX simply comes across at what it is a smaller accord.
The TL is significantly modified US accord so it makes sense to stay particularly SHAWD.
THe RL is a non competitive dinosaur that should die. Honda should get it through its head the a premuim division, should be premium, if they can't offer a better product (and the division loses money) they should kill it, done. If they hadnt F&*&^%@ up the TL so thoroughly we wouldnt be having this conversation! Part of the problem is the Japanese corporate culture thing of always kowtowing to the head honcho EVEN when he is wrong!! When the TL design was done at least someone should have raised their hand and said Jesus that looks like SHIT instead of simply politely applauding as all the other morons around.
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Honda doesn't sell a bone stock Euro Accord here either, so your point is pretty moot.
Secondly, the only stuff the TSX really has in common with the Accord, is stuff you can't see, and the powertrain, which is similar (except the V6, which is vastly superior in the TSX). The suspension is completely different, styling is different, every major dimension is different, the interior is completely different and nicer, and on and on and on. And the price is similar. The TSX is not a bad value, the problem with the TSX is really nothing. It is selling in the volume that the TL SHOULD have been selling in. The biggest problem is that Acura decided not to finish what they started, which was to move the TSX up in size slightly, move the TL up (they went a little too far with the 8" increase) and then make the RL bigger. Clearly, the product that was supposed to replace the RL was canned, so we will have to wait and see how they re-align it. Frankly, the TL should shrink about 4-5" the TSX should be replaced by the Civic thingy and the RL should grow about 5-6." That would provide the adequate size spacing to end the ridiculous assertions that the TL and RL are the same (the RL is MUCH better built). The rest can be cured with simple tuning and powertrain changes.
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ipribadi
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Agree the RL needs to grow 5-6" and TL shrink a little bit, but IMO the TSX should not be axed.
My suggestion is to copy Lexus' lineup:
LS = RL
GS = TL
ES = TSX
IS = Sub TSX thing
The TSX has always been poor on both sides, car mags and enthusiast blast it for not being sporty enough while friends of mine over 45yrs old say it feels unrefined/cheap due to NVH.
By splitting the entry level luxury market in two segments: sporty & comfort, Acura has their bases better covered.
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superchg
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6SPDTL wrote:
You can exchange it for any deity you wish, Holy Mohammed, Yaweh, Budda, Rah, Santa Claus :)
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When the TL design was done at least someone should have raised their hand and said Santa Claus that looks like SHIT instead of simply politely applauding as all the other morons around :)
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BananaBoy2601
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I say kill the TSX then take the Acura brand global. I would be surprised if the line-up didn't look like this with all the hints they've handed out.
New Acura (hopefully coupe/wagon variants) = IS/3/A4/C/G
TL (smaller) = ES/LaCrosse/S60/Infiniti's new FWD competition
RL (CLS/CC-esque) = 5/E/A6/GS/M
RDX = X3/Q5/RX/GLK
MDX = X5/ML/New smaller Q7/JX
ZDX = X6/FX/MBZs MLK?
Sport Car = Z4/TT/Boxster
Then if that line-up does well add
Luxury Sedan = A8/7/S/LS
Fullsize Crossover = X7/GL/Q9/LX
Another Sport Car = 911/R8/GTR
Power of Dreams...
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Colin
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F148VR wrote:
Just came across an article in Automotive News that suggested the TSX may be phased out after 2013. The reasoning given is that the TL replacement will be downsized in order to further differentiate from the RL. But with the TSX being not much smaller than the current TL, it simply doesn't make sense to keep both.
I just happen to have my 04 TSX in for service at the dealer, and my service advisor more or less comfirmed what was in the article when I brought this up.
I guess my hope for a manual TSX wagon is fading fast...
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I've been thinking about this for some time now and have always felt that it would be unlikely. However, there is one factor (IMO) that could make it a reality... or at least closer to reality.
What if Acura decided that they wanted to lower the prices of it's sedan product across the board? If they were to introduce a new 26K TSX and 32K TL, it could significantly disrupt the resale values of the current cars in the marketplace.
If they were to introduce a 'new' model with a new name, it could fill the role of the TSX at a lower price point, and not hurt the resale of the current ones coming off lease.
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Nick GravesX
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owequitit wrote:
6SPDTL wrote:
The acura line up is crap. The TSX is essentially a bone stock european accord, BMW doesnt sell a bone stock 3 series here thats why they can charge premium while the TSX simply comes across at what it is a smaller accord.
The TL is significantly modified US accord so it makes sense to stay particularly SHAWD.
THe RL is a non competitive dinosaur that should die. Honda should get it through its head the a premuim division, should be premium, if they can't offer a better product (and the division loses money) they should kill it, done. If they hadnt F&*&^%@ up the TL so thoroughly we wouldnt be having this conversation! Part of the problem is the Japanese corporate culture thing of always kowtowing to the head honcho EVEN when he is wrong!! When the TL design was done at least someone should have raised their hand and said Jesus that looks like SHIT instead of simply politely applauding as all the other morons around.
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Honda doesn't sell a bone stock Euro Accord here either, so your point is pretty moot.
Secondly, the only stuff the TSX really has in common with the Accord, is stuff you can't see, and the powertrain, which is similar (except the V6, which is vastly superior in the TSX). The suspension is completely different, styling is different, every major dimension is different, the interior is completely different and nicer, and on and on and on. And the price is similar. The TSX is not a bad value, the problem with the TSX is really nothing. It is selling in the volume that the TL SHOULD have been selling in. The biggest problem is that Acura decided not to finish what they started, which was to move the TSX up in size slightly, move the TL up (they went a little too far with the 8" increase) and then make the RL bigger. Clearly, the product that was supposed to replace the RL was canned, so we will have to wait and see how they re-align it. Frankly, the TL should shrink about 4-5" the TSX should be replaced by the Civic thingy and the RL should grow about 5-6." That would provide the adequate size spacing to end the ridiculous assertions that the TL and RL are the same (the RL is MUCH better built). The rest can be cured with simple tuning and powertrain changes.
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It's another strawman about the component sharing anyway; a 1er is essentially a 3er with the trunk & sides stoved in. No-one bleats and whines about that. You can buy poverty-spec or luxury versions of each over here.
I agree the new Civ > next (slightly smaller) Accord > new Legend sizing makes far more sense. Let's hope they don't totally fuck up the styling this time; there's nothing intrinsically wrong with the planks.
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DavidJ
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The only reason the TL grew is because the Accord it's based on grew.
If the Accord becomes global-sized and in line with Europe's Accord, then the TL becomes a bastard child with no platform base.
And the RL would become Accord++ (like the Toyota Avalon is Camry++ or Hyundai Azera is Sonata++)
US Civic - ILX
US/EU Accord - TSX
Accord++ (Japanes Inspire?) - RL
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danielgr
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DavidJ wrote:
The only reason the TL grew is because the Accord it's based on grew.
If the Accord becomes global-sized and in line with Europe's Accord, then the TL becomes a bastard child with no platform base.
And the RL would become Accord++ (like the Toyota Avalon is Camry++ or Hyundai Azera is Sonata++)
US Civic - ILX
US/EU Accord - TSX
Accord++ (Japanes Inspire?) - RL
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- The US Accord is sold in excess of 500,000 units, and it's the "Accord" not only in NA, but also in all of Honda's fastest growing markets (China, Asean, South America, etc.)
- The Euro Accord is a luxury vehicle that sells at least 5x less despite relatively wide availability (Japan, Europe, NA, China)
I don't know if Honda has some crazy secret plans, but I'll be extremely surprised if they brought their best selling sedan car in line with it's poor selling sibling. Just as surprised as I would be if Honda tried to sell the "US-formula" in the European market. Can't find anyone to explain me how wouldn't that be a market suicide...
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cforez
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danielgr wrote:
- The US Accord is sold in excess of 500,000 units, and it's the "Accord" not only in NA, but also in all of Honda's fastest growing markets (China, Asean, South America, etc.)
- The Euro Accord is a luxury vehicle that sells at least 5x less despite relatively wide availability (Japan, Europe, NA, China)
I don't know if Honda has some crazy secret plans, but I'll be extremely surprised if they brought their best selling sedan car in line with it's poor selling sibling. Just as surprised as I would be if Honda tried to sell the "US-formula" in the European market. Can't find anyone to explain me how wouldn't that be a market suicide...
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I agree, having a one-size global Accord is probably not a good idea. But if Honda was going to do it, a global Accord would be closer in size to the US model than the Euro model.
Also, a global Accord would mean the end of the TSX.
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DavidJ
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danielgr wrote:
- The US Accord is sold in excess of 500,000 units, and it's the "Accord" not only in NA, but also in all of Honda's fastest growing markets (China, Asean, South America, etc.)
- The Euro Accord is a luxury vehicle that sells at least 5x less despite relatively wide availability (Japan, Europe, NA, China)
I don't know if Honda has some crazy secret plans, but I'll be extremely surprised if they brought their best selling sedan car in line with it's poor selling sibling. Just as surprised as I would be if Honda tried to sell the "US-formula" in the European market. Can't find anyone to explain me how wouldn't that be a market suicide...
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I have no idea what Hondas' plans are.
But I think there's a safe bet:
Whatever size the next US Accord is, that will be the size of the next TSX/TL.
And the RL better be significantly bigger.
(By the way in Chile I would be much happier if they brought the Euro Accord instead of the US Accord, because the latter has become way too big.)
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intune
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cforez wrote:
danielgr wrote:
- The US Accord is sold in excess of 500,000 units, and it's the "Accord" not only in NA, but also in all of Honda's fastest growing markets (China, Asean, South America, etc.)
- The Euro Accord is a luxury vehicle that sells at least 5x less despite relatively wide availability (Japan, Europe, NA, China)
I don't know if Honda has some crazy secret plans, but I'll be extremely surprised if they brought their best selling sedan car in line with it's poor selling sibling. Just as surprised as I would be if Honda tried to sell the "US-formula" in the European market. Can't find anyone to explain me how wouldn't that be a market suicide...
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I agree, having a one-size global Accord is probably not a good idea. But if Honda was going to do it, a global Accord would be closer in size to the US model than the Euro model.
Also, a global Accord would mean the end of the TSX.
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Why can't the ILX become the new Euro Accord? Oh how the worm turns.
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cforez
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Because if the goal is to have a global Acura brand, Honda shouldn't be selling Acura models as Hondas (or vice versa).
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CivicB18
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Nick Graves wrote:
owequitit wrote:
6SPDTL wrote:
The acura line up is crap. The TSX is essentially a bone stock european accord, BMW doesnt sell a bone stock 3 series here thats why they can charge premium while the TSX simply comes across at what it is a smaller accord.
The TL is significantly modified US accord so it makes sense to stay particularly SHAWD.
THe RL is a non competitive dinosaur that should die. Honda should get it through its head the a premuim division, should be premium, if they can't offer a better product (and the division loses money) they should kill it, done. If they hadnt F&*&^%@ up the TL so thoroughly we wouldnt be having this conversation! Part of the problem is the Japanese corporate culture thing of always kowtowing to the head honcho EVEN when he is wrong!! When the TL design was done at least someone should have raised their hand and said Jesus that looks like SHIT instead of simply politely applauding as all the other morons around.
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Honda doesn't sell a bone stock Euro Accord here either, so your point is pretty moot.
Secondly, the only stuff the TSX really has in common with the Accord, is stuff you can't see, and the powertrain, which is similar (except the V6, which is vastly superior in the TSX). The suspension is completely different, styling is different, every major dimension is different, the interior is completely different and nicer, and on and on and on. And the price is similar. The TSX is not a bad value, the problem with the TSX is really nothing. It is selling in the volume that the TL SHOULD have been selling in. The biggest problem is that Acura decided not to finish what they started, which was to move the TSX up in size slightly, move the TL up (they went a little too far with the 8" increase) and then make the RL bigger. Clearly, the product that was supposed to replace the RL was canned, so we will have to wait and see how they re-align it. Frankly, the TL should shrink about 4-5" the TSX should be replaced by the Civic thingy and the RL should grow about 5-6." That would provide the adequate size spacing to end the ridiculous assertions that the TL and RL are the same (the RL is MUCH better built). The rest can be cured with simple tuning and powertrain changes.
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It's another strawman about the component sharing anyway; a 1er is essentially a 3er with the trunk & sides stoved in. No-one bleats and whines about that. You can buy poverty-spec or luxury versions of each over here.
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True but look at the performance the 1 Series offers! Do you think the ILX will even come close? I dont see anything wrong with the 1 and 3 Series sharing platforms as at least in these applications, performance is not compromised or diluted.
The issue I currently have with BMW is the same issue I have with Acura currently. BMW used a shortened 7 Series platform for the 5 and it shows in its responses and tactile performance. Acura has an even larger compromise currently as ALL of their sedans are based on the Accord. I have no issues with platform sharing as long as it doesn't negatively alter the end product.
~Patrick
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TSX69
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TSX Still has a Chance
Why was the ILX downsized? The outgoing TSX was based on the European Honda Accord platform, and its footprint crowded the TL sedan, which also was about the same size as the flagship RL. Having 3 sedans so close in size but with a $20,000 price spread was a problem for the brand. More differentiation was needed -- hence the ILX.
The deletion of the TSX, though, will not happen immediately upon the launch of the ILX, said Vicki Poponi, American Honda assistant vice president of product planning.
While admitting the TSX "is the car that gets squeezed," Poponi said that, "We can't dump it right away. We'll see how they work together."
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Torque
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This is my humble prediction. For 2 years or so we are going to have all 4 sedans in the line up at the same time with the RL making an exit relatively soon until the new one comes out. The TSX will remain until the new TL debuts in its smaller form with the rumored smaller V6 engine choices. The ILX will cover the 4 cylinder range up to a little over 200 hp, then MMC change will get the Earth Dreams 2.4 four while the TSX exits and the all new TL joins.
This is just my guess but in 2 years the TSX will be saying goodbye as the ILX in its MMC change gets the upgraded top line engine with an automatic transmission option to absorb the would be sales of the TSX. The new TL will pick up where the TSX 3.5 V6 left off and close the gap of where the TSX once was.
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Fan Koni
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Torque wrote:
This is my humble prediction. For 2 years or so we are going to have all 4 sedans in the line up at the same time with the RL making an exit relatively soon until the new one comes out. The TSX will remain until the new TL debuts in its smaller form with the rumored smaller V6 engine choices. The ILX will cover the 4 cylinder range up to a little over 200 hp, then MMC change will get the Earth Dreams 2.4 four while the TSX exits and the all new TL joins.
This is just my guess but in 2 years the TSX will be saying goodbye as the ILX in its MMC change gets the upgraded top line engine with an automatic transmission option to absorb the would be sales of the TSX. The new TL will pick up where the TSX 3.5 V6 left off and close the gap of where the TSX once was.
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It would fit well, the TSX/Euro Accord is produced since 2008.
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