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blackstripe77
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MMC Odyssey RB3/4 set to debut on October 6th
http://www.honda.co.jp/ODYSSEY/new/
MMC Insight Hybrid now with 1.5l IMA
http://www.honda.co.jp/INSIGHT/new/
New Freed Hybrid and Freed Spike Hybrid, also with the 1.5l IMA
http://www.honda.co.jp/FREED/new/
Can't wait until the new Odyssey debuts so we can finally place our order! Apparently we were too late for the pre-MMC. Hope all the new chrome trim doesn't make it too blingy, but the LED tails will be a welcome addition.
The new 1.5l in the Insight (and Freed) (from the CR-Z?) should give it some much needed additional power, and hopefully with it, better real-world economy. Those plasticky grilles look a bit awkward in the day when you can see the whole grille though. Not a big fan of the illumination either. Or the blue taillights. I guess some people like others to know they're driving a hybrid. Personally, I'd prefer my hypothetical 1.5l Fit/FitShuttle Hybrid to look like a Fit RS.
I am also excited for the first hybrid 7-seater from Honda! No chance we'll be replacing our small (and inefficient) Stream with the even smaller Freed though, but still looking forward to it. Hopefully we'll see IMA in some larger cars soon, when the next JDM Civic and Accord come around (if they do). Perhaps Daniel will be placing an order for another hybrid soon?
Looks like Honda has really been trying to up their game, and now they're finally back on their feet after the quake.
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Midi_Amp
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blackstripe77 wrote:
MMC Odyssey RB3/4 set to debut on October 6th
http://www.honda.co.jp/ODYSSEY/new/
MMC Insight Hybrid now with 1.5l IMA
http://www.honda.co.jp/INSIGHT/new/
New Freed Hybrid and Freed Spike Hybrid, also with the 1.5l IMA
http://www.honda.co.jp/FREED/new/
Can't wait until the new Odyssey debuts so we can finally place our order! Apparently we were too late for the pre-MMC. Hope all the new chrome trim doesn't make it too blingy, but the LED tails will be a welcome addition.
The new 1.5l in the Insight (and Freed) (from the CR-Z?) should give it some much needed additional power, and hopefully with it, better real-world economy. Those plasticky grilles look a bit awkward in the day when you can see the whole grille though. Not a big fan of the illumination either. Or the blue taillights. I guess some people like others to know they're driving a hybrid. Personally, I'd prefer my hypothetical 1.5l Fit/FitShuttle Hybrid to look like a Fit RS.
I am also excited for the first hybrid 7-seater from Honda! No chance we'll be replacing our small (and inefficient) Stream with the even smaller Freed though, but still looking forward to it. Hopefully we'll see IMA in some larger cars soon, when the next JDM Civic and Accord come around (if they do). Perhaps Daniel will be placing an order for another hybrid soon?
Looks like Honda has really been trying to up their game, and now they're finally back on their feet after the quake.
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The Freed Hybrid is planned to launch this year since 2009, per Takanobu Ito interview on Nikkei that year and the Ody mid model change is given in the timeline. So I think these 2 cars are anything but upping their game.
The Insight change is surprising though. The change in dashboard material and the engine capacity are quite peculiar for a refresh. If my memory serves, then the Insight 2.0 has been revised two times, one for the suspension setup and the upcoming interior + engine overhaul. Well, at least Honda is serious about the Insight, I'm hoping it will grow a little bit for better headroom on the rear for the NA market and make the car a true global car... Oh and ditch IMA cost effectiveness, nobody acknowledged it anyway, I believe if Honda creates a series - parallel hybrid like the Prius, it will deliver better mileage than Toyota.
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danielgr
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Midi_Amp wrote:
blackstripe77 wrote:
MMC Odyssey RB3/4 set to debut on October 6th
http://www.honda.co.jp/ODYSSEY/new/
MMC Insight Hybrid now with 1.5l IMA
http://www.honda.co.jp/INSIGHT/new/
New Freed Hybrid and Freed Spike Hybrid, also with the 1.5l IMA
http://www.honda.co.jp/FREED/new/
Can't wait until the new Odyssey debuts so we can finally place our order! Apparently we were too late for the pre-MMC. Hope all the new chrome trim doesn't make it too blingy, but the LED tails will be a welcome addition.
The new 1.5l in the Insight (and Freed) (from the CR-Z?) should give it some much needed additional power, and hopefully with it, better real-world economy. Those plasticky grilles look a bit awkward in the day when you can see the whole grille though. Not a big fan of the illumination either. Or the blue taillights. I guess some people like others to know they're driving a hybrid. Personally, I'd prefer my hypothetical 1.5l Fit/FitShuttle Hybrid to look like a Fit RS.
I am also excited for the first hybrid 7-seater from Honda! No chance we'll be replacing our small (and inefficient) Stream with the even smaller Freed though, but still looking forward to it. Hopefully we'll see IMA in some larger cars soon, when the next JDM Civic and Accord come around (if they do). Perhaps Daniel will be placing an order for another hybrid soon?
Looks like Honda has really been trying to up their game, and now they're finally back on their feet after the quake.
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The Freed Hybrid is planned to launch this year since 2009, per Takanobu Ito interview on Nikkei that year and the Ody mid model change is given in the timeline. So I think these 2 cars are anything but upping their game.
The Insight change is surprising though. The change in dashboard material and the engine capacity are quite peculiar for a refresh. If my memory serves, then the Insight 2.0 has been revised two times, one for the suspension setup and the upcoming interior + engine overhaul. Well, at least Honda is serious about the Insight, I'm hoping it will grow a little bit for better headroom on the rear for the NA market and make the car a true global car... Oh and ditch IMA cost effectiveness, nobody acknowledged it anyway, I believe if Honda creates a series - parallel hybrid like the Prius, it will deliver better mileage than Toyota.
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Now that begs to question, since the 1.5L is said to get better FE, will that be the Civic's 1.5L + Lithium setup? Remember that Honda has yet to announce the Civic for Japan, and it could very well be that "there will be no Civic sedan for Japan" this time around.
I'm also curious for the Freed. To me the 1.5L is a given, but I wonder about the gas engine and the battery pack:
- will it use the Civic's Li one, or Sanyo's old but proven NiMh? (common to 1.3L Insight/Fit and CR-Z)
- will it use Civic's 8-valve i-DSi VCM engine? or CR-Z's 16-valve VTEC one?
My bets are :
1) 8valve gas engine with NiMh battery
2) 8valve gas engine with Li pack
3) CR-Z drivetrain (it'd be impossible for it to reach better FE than the 1.3L on 10-15mode).
But truth is I'm nearly 55%/45% on first two choices (0% for third).
I would tend to guess both "premium Insight" and "Freed" will share 100% its drivetrain.
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danielgr
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danielgr wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
blackstripe77 wrote:
MMC Odyssey RB3/4 set to debut on October 6th
http://www.honda.co.jp/ODYSSEY/new/
MMC Insight Hybrid now with 1.5l IMA
http://www.honda.co.jp/INSIGHT/new/
New Freed Hybrid and Freed Spike Hybrid, also with the 1.5l IMA
http://www.honda.co.jp/FREED/new/
Can't wait until the new Odyssey debuts so we can finally place our order! Apparently we were too late for the pre-MMC. Hope all the new chrome trim doesn't make it too blingy, but the LED tails will be a welcome addition.
The new 1.5l in the Insight (and Freed) (from the CR-Z?) should give it some much needed additional power, and hopefully with it, better real-world economy. Those plasticky grilles look a bit awkward in the day when you can see the whole grille though. Not a big fan of the illumination either. Or the blue taillights. I guess some people like others to know they're driving a hybrid. Personally, I'd prefer my hypothetical 1.5l Fit/FitShuttle Hybrid to look like a Fit RS.
I am also excited for the first hybrid 7-seater from Honda! No chance we'll be replacing our small (and inefficient) Stream with the even smaller Freed though, but still looking forward to it. Hopefully we'll see IMA in some larger cars soon, when the next JDM Civic and Accord come around (if they do). Perhaps Daniel will be placing an order for another hybrid soon?
Looks like Honda has really been trying to up their game, and now they're finally back on their feet after the quake.
|
The Freed Hybrid is planned to launch this year since 2009, per Takanobu Ito interview on Nikkei that year and the Ody mid model change is given in the timeline. So I think these 2 cars are anything but upping their game.
The Insight change is surprising though. The change in dashboard material and the engine capacity are quite peculiar for a refresh. If my memory serves, then the Insight 2.0 has been revised two times, one for the suspension setup and the upcoming interior + engine overhaul. Well, at least Honda is serious about the Insight, I'm hoping it will grow a little bit for better headroom on the rear for the NA market and make the car a true global car... Oh and ditch IMA cost effectiveness, nobody acknowledged it anyway, I believe if Honda creates a series - parallel hybrid like the Prius, it will deliver better mileage than Toyota.
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Now that begs to question, since the 1.5L is said to get better FE, will that be the Civic's 1.5L + Lithium setup? Remember that Honda has yet to announce the Civic for Japan, and it could very well be that "there will be no Civic sedan for Japan" this time around.
I'm also curious for the Freed. To me the 1.5L is a given, but I wonder about the gas engine and the battery pack:
- will it use the Civic's Li one, or Sanyo's old but proven NiMh? (common to 1.3L Insight/Fit and CR-Z)
- will it use Civic's 8-valve i-DSi VCM engine? or CR-Z's 16-valve VTEC one?
My bets are :
1) 8valve gas engine with NiMh battery
2) 8valve gas engine with Li pack
3) CR-Z drivetrain (it'd be impossible for it to reach better FE than the 1.3L on 10-15mode).
But truth is I'm nearly 55%/45% on first two choices (0% for third).
I would tend to guess both "premium Insight" and "Freed" will share 100% its drivetrain.
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blackstripe77
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I didn't realize the Freed Hybrid had already been announced, but yes, the Ody is within its window for a refresh. Also if I remember correctly, the Insight had also had its interior updated once before. I think it was the seating material.
I'm curious why there are so many variations of the IMA drivetrain. Understandably, the 1.3l may be more efficient and the 1.5l more powerful, the Li pack being more expensive than the NiMH, and that the Civic Hybrid drivetrain is being produced as it always has been for the Civic Hybrid. But presumably the Civic Hybrid is being phased out (for (hopefully) the introduction of the next generation), shouldn't all the newer hybrid vehicles receive the newer generation engine? Not only should they be more efficient (they improved on things like friction losses for the new Insight), but using the same system on a wider range of vehicles should also help to reduce costs via economies of scale?
I wouldn't be so sure on the series parallel idea. Why do you think copying the Prius would make a better Prius? I know Honda can do magical things and all, but that sounds like a bit of a stretch. I've always liked the simple approach of IMA. It's like Type-R for hybrids. A very Honda approach. More lightness, less compromise. Although it means less electrical power, it also means less weight to carry around when the batteries aren't capable of providing assist. I've seen way too many Toyota/Lexus hybrids sitting idly in traffic with the engine running in order to charge the batteries (this is indicated by the running arrows on the diagram you can put up on the LCD screen). Surely if it needs to charge the batteries at a stoplight, it needed to use more gas to get the batteries there in the first place? It also means less cost. The Prius has a horrible interior, and when you take its price into account, makes the unattractive can even less attractive. On the other hand, except for the Civic, Honda's IMA cars are smaller, and in an appropriately smaller price bracket. Admittedly though, IMA might not be good enough for larger vehicles (ahem Accord, Legend Hybrid, anyone?).
Anyhow, I agree with Daniel that the 1.5l Insight and Freed should share identical drivetrains, whatever they may be. I would also be inclined to think that they will be offered with the cheaper NiMH pack, considering the target markets of these cars. However, with a "regular" 1.3l Insight and "premium" 1.5l Insight being offered, I wouldn't be surprised if the Li pack is offered in the more expensive 1.5l Insight, as it no longer is required to compete on price. Perhaps the 1.5l Li combo could then be offered in the next Civic Hybrid with a larger Li pack.
Off-topic, I do hope we will see a new Japanese Civic, whatever the bodystyle. Not only would mean a new Civic Hybrid (most expensive Honda Hybrid?), but it would give hope for a new Type-R...
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WingZ
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Anyone know if we will get the 1.5l Insight in the states? Seems as though the Europeans just received the 1.3L with updates to improve fuel economy. Be great if we did.
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danielgr
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WingZ wrote:
Anyone know if we will get the 1.5l Insight in the states? Seems as though the Europeans just received the 1.3L with updates to improve fuel economy. Be great if we did.
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My guess is that:
- it won't happen with the Li pack, 'cause the Insight is marketed as the "hybrid for everyone" in the US, and using the HCH IMA would add costs and defeat the purpose of having both (the Civic being a "more premium alternative"); in JP the "hybrid for everyone" is the Fit.
- it may happen without the Li pack if Honda can keep mpg similar to the 1.3L version (costwise I don't think there is significant increase between 1.3L and 1.5L).
Summing up, slim chances, but not inexistant imho.
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WingZ
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danielgr wrote:
WingZ wrote:
Anyone know if we will get the 1.5l Insight in the states? Seems as though the Europeans just received the 1.3L with updates to improve fuel economy. Be great if we did.
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My guess is that:
- it won't happen with the Li pack, 'cause the Insight is marketed as the "hybrid for everyone" in the US, and using the HCH IMA would add costs and defeat the purpose of having both (the Civic being a "more premium alternative"); in JP the "hybrid for everyone" is the Fit.
- it may happen without the Li pack if Honda can keep mpg similar to the 1.3L version (costwise I don't think there is significant increase between 1.3L and 1.5L).
Summing up, slim chances, but not inexistant imho.
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Darn you don't think maybe they'll try and make it more competitive against the Prius? I mean it is still more hatchback to hatchback vs the HCH. With the improvements mentioned on the 2012 Euro Insight coupled with the 1.5 and maybe a price increase of $2500 on top of the EX with navi price. That would make the Insight a lot more competitive and still priced far the below the Prius with similar options.
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danielgr
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blackstripe77 wrote:
I didn't realize the Freed Hybrid had already been announced, but yes, the Ody is within its window for a refresh. Also if I remember correctly, the Insight had also had its interior updated once before. I think it was the seating material.
I'm curious why there are so many variations of the IMA drivetrain. Understandably, the 1.3l may be more efficient and the 1.5l more powerful, the Li pack being more expensive than the NiMH, and that the Civic Hybrid drivetrain is being produced as it always has been for the Civic Hybrid. But presumably the Civic Hybrid is being phased out (for (hopefully) the introduction of the next generation), shouldn't all the newer hybrid vehicles receive the newer generation engine? Not only should they be more efficient (they improved on things like friction losses for the new Insight), but using the same system on a wider range of vehicles should also help to reduce costs via economies of scale?
I wouldn't be so sure on the series parallel idea. Why do you think copying the Prius would make a better Prius? I know Honda can do magical things and all, but that sounds like a bit of a stretch. I've always liked the simple approach of IMA. It's like Type-R for hybrids. A very Honda approach. More lightness, less compromise. Although it means less electrical power, it also means less weight to carry around when the batteries aren't capable of providing assist. I've seen way too many Toyota/Lexus hybrids sitting idly in traffic with the engine running in order to charge the batteries (this is indicated by the running arrows on the diagram you can put up on the LCD screen). Surely if it needs to charge the batteries at a stoplight, it needed to use more gas to get the batteries there in the first place? It also means less cost. The Prius has a horrible interior, and when you take its price into account, makes the unattractive can even less attractive. On the other hand, except for the Civic, Honda's IMA cars are smaller, and in an appropriately smaller price bracket. Admittedly though, IMA might not be good enough for larger vehicles (ahem Accord, Legend Hybrid, anyone?).
Anyhow, I agree with Daniel that the 1.5l Insight and Freed should share identical drivetrains, whatever they may be. I would also be inclined to think that they will be offered with the cheaper NiMH pack, considering the target markets of these cars. However, with a "regular" 1.3l Insight and "premium" 1.5l Insight being offered, I wouldn't be surprised if the Li pack is offered in the more expensive 1.5l Insight, as it no longer is required to compete on price. Perhaps the 1.5l Li combo could then be offered in the next Civic Hybrid with a larger Li pack.
Off-topic, I do hope we will see a new Japanese Civic, whatever the bodystyle. Not only would mean a new Civic Hybrid (most expensive Honda Hybrid?), but it would give hope for a new Type-R...
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I think one of Honda's IMA advantages is that it's not only "cheap" but also "flexible" (in terms of drivetrain/transmission config), and at this point Honda has what it takes to optimize the system for different configurations while using same HW.
Regarding batteries I believe:
- it the key expensive element, but Honda uses the same Sanyo pack accross the board (safe new Civic).
- the Li pack is very new, and Honda isn't ready to make it mainstream. It could sure lower costs, but also risk widespread problems and recalls. Honda has always introduced new tech in a progressive way, being sure everything is OK in small series before rising up capacity. Hybrid tech is key for future development, so I don't think they'll rush.
As for engines:
- I'm not sure the 1.3L is more efficient and the 1.5L more powerfull logic applies. Past experience with 8-valve i-DSi L-series (non VTEC) shows 1.5L FE penalty vanishes on heavier cars while performance advantage is limited to low-end range. To me it has more to do with adapting to the car's weight than about the performance/FE equation. That is of course talking "real-life", on JP ultra-low-load 10-15mode the L13 may always have an advantage.
- Not sure on your quote on Civic Hybrid Phase Out. I don't think Honda is making the 8th gens anymore. What I think after the Insight refresh is that Honda may not introduce the 9th Civic Sedan in JP this time around.
- The logic of "one formula for all to improve economies of scale" is flawed. There is also big money to be made by differenciating products customer-wise while minimizing HW changes. That's what Honda is doing with their hybrid line-up. The Fit hybrid effectively nearly killed the Insight (which couldn't compete with the premium Prius in quality nor with the Fit in price), so now Honda needs something to bring back the Insight (-> going premium). That is where the "9th HCH hybrid drivetrain" (I mean including Li-pack) could make sense, but that assumes there will not be a "Japanese Civic Hybrid" (in whatever shape it may come). To be honest, I'm still wondering about Honda's plans for the "Civic Hybrid" nameplate in JP/Europe (so far there've been no announcements).
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danielgr
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WingZ wrote:
danielgr wrote:
WingZ wrote:
Anyone know if we will get the 1.5l Insight in the states? Seems as though the Europeans just received the 1.3L with updates to improve fuel economy. Be great if we did.
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My guess is that:
- it won't happen with the Li pack, 'cause the Insight is marketed as the "hybrid for everyone" in the US, and using the HCH IMA would add costs and defeat the purpose of having both (the Civic being a "more premium alternative"); in JP the "hybrid for everyone" is the Fit.
- it may happen without the Li pack if Honda can keep mpg similar to the 1.3L version (costwise I don't think there is significant increase between 1.3L and 1.5L).
Summing up, slim chances, but not inexistant imho.
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Darn you don't think maybe they'll try and make it more competitive against the Prius? I mean it is still more hatchback to hatchback vs the HCH. With the improvements mentioned on the 2012 Euro Insight coupled with the 1.5 and maybe a price increase of $2500 on top of the EX with navi price. That would make the Insight a lot more competitive and still priced far the below the Prius with similar options.
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For the Insight 1.5L to make sense in the US Honda has to:
- Be able to manufacture it at similar cost as 1.3L (I believe possible)
- Be able to get similar FE to the current 1.3L version (I believe it possible with proper tuning), could become an "Insight EX" (larger engine with improved response and no FE penalty) vs. an "Insight LX" (smaller engine but improved FE over existing formula).
- Estimate that it'll remain different enough from the 1.5L HCH not to eat into Civic sales (here is where my doubts are).
Again, that's just "my opinion on what is/will be", has nothing to do with what my likes/wishes.
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danielgr
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blackstripe77 wrote:
MMC Odyssey RB3/4 set to debut on October 6th
http://www.honda.co.jp/ODYSSEY/new/
MMC Insight Hybrid now with 1.5l IMA
http://www.honda.co.jp/INSIGHT/new/
New Freed Hybrid and Freed Spike Hybrid, also with the 1.5l IMA
http://www.honda.co.jp/FREED/new/
Can't wait until the new Odyssey debuts so we can finally place our order! Apparently we were too late for the pre-MMC. Hope all the new chrome trim doesn't make it too blingy, but the LED tails will be a welcome addition.
The new 1.5l in the Insight (and Freed) (from the CR-Z?) should give it some much needed additional power, and hopefully with it, better real-world economy. Those plasticky grilles look a bit awkward in the day when you can see the whole grille though. Not a big fan of the illumination either. Or the blue taillights. I guess some people like others to know they're driving a hybrid. Personally, I'd prefer my hypothetical 1.5l Fit/FitShuttle Hybrid to look like a Fit RS.
I am also excited for the first hybrid 7-seater from Honda! No chance we'll be replacing our small (and inefficient) Stream with the even smaller Freed though, but still looking forward to it. Hopefully we'll see IMA in some larger cars soon, when the next JDM Civic and Accord come around (if they do). Perhaps Daniel will be placing an order for another hybrid soon?
Looks like Honda has really been trying to up their game, and now they're finally back on their feet after the quake.
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WongKN
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Great, interesting news. I will put it up into the Honda-Fan blog. Thanks for pointing this out !
Personally I think it makes more sense to put the CR-Z engine into the Insight premium. It reminds me of how the original Fit evolved. Came out with an economy-oriented 1.3l initially. Then the premium version with a more performance oriented 1.5l engine. I think the Insight can do with the same move. It really doesn't make sense to go too economy-centric with the 1.5l variant. It doesn't make too much sense.
I have been expecting the Odyssey update for some time now. Also the next hybrid now officially revealed to be the Freed. The Freed has not been as successful as expected so hopefully this new variant helps it.
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Midi_Amp
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danielgr wrote:
blackstripe77 wrote:
I didn't realize the Freed Hybrid had already been announced, but yes, the Ody is within its window for a refresh. Also if I remember correctly, the Insight had also had its interior updated once before. I think it was the seating material.
I'm curious why there are so many variations of the IMA drivetrain. Understandably, the 1.3l may be more efficient and the 1.5l more powerful, the Li pack being more expensive than the NiMH, and that the Civic Hybrid drivetrain is being produced as it always has been for the Civic Hybrid. But presumably the Civic Hybrid is being phased out (for (hopefully) the introduction of the next generation), shouldn't all the newer hybrid vehicles receive the newer generation engine? Not only should they be more efficient (they improved on things like friction losses for the new Insight), but using the same system on a wider range of vehicles should also help to reduce costs via economies of scale?
I wouldn't be so sure on the series parallel idea. Why do you think copying the Prius would make a better Prius? I know Honda can do magical things and all, but that sounds like a bit of a stretch. I've always liked the simple approach of IMA. It's like Type-R for hybrids. A very Honda approach. More lightness, less compromise. Although it means less electrical power, it also means less weight to carry around when the batteries aren't capable of providing assist. I've seen way too many Toyota/Lexus hybrids sitting idly in traffic with the engine running in order to charge the batteries (this is indicated by the running arrows on the diagram you can put up on the LCD screen). Surely if it needs to charge the batteries at a stoplight, it needed to use more gas to get the batteries there in the first place? It also means less cost. The Prius has a horrible interior, and when you take its price into account, makes the unattractive can even less attractive. On the other hand, except for the Civic, Honda's IMA cars are smaller, and in an appropriately smaller price bracket. Admittedly though, IMA might not be good enough for larger vehicles (ahem Accord, Legend Hybrid, anyone?).
Anyhow, I agree with Daniel that the 1.5l Insight and Freed should share identical drivetrains, whatever they may be. I would also be inclined to think that they will be offered with the cheaper NiMH pack, considering the target markets of these cars. However, with a "regular" 1.3l Insight and "premium" 1.5l Insight being offered, I wouldn't be surprised if the Li pack is offered in the more expensive 1.5l Insight, as it no longer is required to compete on price. Perhaps the 1.5l Li combo could then be offered in the next Civic Hybrid with a larger Li pack.
Off-topic, I do hope we will see a new Japanese Civic, whatever the bodystyle. Not only would mean a new Civic Hybrid (most expensive Honda Hybrid?), but it would give hope for a new Type-R...
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I think one of Honda's IMA advantages is that it's not only "cheap" but also "flexible" (in terms of drivetrain/transmission config), and at this point Honda has what it takes to optimize the system for different configurations while using same HW.
Regarding batteries I believe:
- it the key expensive element, but Honda uses the same Sanyo pack accross the board (safe new Civic).
- the Li pack is very new, and Honda isn't ready to make it mainstream. It could sure lower costs, but also risk widespread problems and recalls. Honda has always introduced new tech in a progressive way, being sure everything is OK in small series before rising up capacity. Hybrid tech is key for future development, so I don't think they'll rush.
As for engines:
- I'm not sure the 1.3L is more efficient and the 1.5L more powerfull logic applies. Past experience with 8-valve i-DSi L-series (non VTEC) shows 1.5L FE penalty vanishes on heavier cars while performance advantage is limited to low-end range. To me it has more to do with adapting to the car's weight than about the performance/FE equation. That is of course talking "real-life", on JP ultra-low-load 10-15mode the L13 may always have an advantage.
- Not sure on your quote on Civic Hybrid Phase Out. I don't think Honda is making the 8th gens anymore. What I think after the Insight refresh is that Honda may not introduce the 9th Civic Sedan in JP this time around.
- The logic of "one formula for all to improve economies of scale" is flawed. There is also big money to be made by differenciating products customer-wise while minimizing HW changes. That's what Honda is doing with their hybrid line-up. The Fit hybrid effectively nearly killed the Insight (which couldn't compete with the premium Prius in quality nor with the Fit in price), so now Honda needs something to bring back the Insight (-> going premium). That is where the "9th HCH hybrid drivetrain" (I mean including Li-pack) could make sense, but that assumes there will not be a "Japanese Civic Hybrid" (in whatever shape it may come). To be honest, I'm still wondering about Honda's plans for the "Civic Hybrid" nameplate in JP/Europe (so far there've been no announcements).
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@danielgr I noticed the news since 2009 from http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/09/freed-hybrid-20090908.html Takanobu Ito interview on Nikkei (post it on my personal blog too :) )
@blackstripe77 from technical point of view, IMA is a canned bread, the best invention after bread itself... I'm trying to pull one here, if it's not funny then sorry... I understand the Honda approach where simplicity just works without additional complexity nor cost. However, at the end of the day, it's the result that matters and IMA equipped cars delivers mileage below series parallel hybrids (Toyota HSD). For those who can afford $20K something with a lease, they can definitely afford the Prius and with the car ubiquitous green status, the buyer will justifies the price based on emotional urges alone. I admire and a die hard Honda fan for what they are, but I could no longer convince friends and relatives on the technicality alone... The last time I try to convince somebody is how good Honda brake mean effective pressure... Yup... Went sour as soon I pulled out the calculator.
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IntegraDC5R
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I'm just hoping the front aluminum lower arms are the same size as the current arms and I will be putting them on my Fit. The CR-Z' lower aluminum arms push the track out by about 20mm and the stock drive shafts are not long enough. :(
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danielgr
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Midi_Amp wrote:
@danielgr I noticed the news since 2009 from http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/09/freed-hybrid-20090908.html Takanobu Ito interview on Nikkei (post it on my personal blog too :) )
@blackstripe77 from technical point of view, IMA is a canned bread, the best invention after bread itself... I'm trying to pull one here, if it's not funny then sorry... I understand the Honda approach where simplicity just works without additional complexity nor cost. However, at the end of the day, it's the result that matters and IMA equipped cars delivers mileage below series parallel hybrids (Toyota HSD). For those who can afford $20K something with a lease, they can definitely afford the Prius and with the car ubiquitous green status, the buyer will justifies the price based on emotional urges alone. I admire and a die hard Honda fan for what they are, but I could no longer convince friends and relatives on the technicality alone... The last time I try to convince somebody is how good Honda brake mean effective pressure... Yup... Went sour as soon I pulled out the calculator.
[...] |
- On the IMA thing: Those making "fuel economy" the only important part of their purchase will inevitably buy the Prius. Yet there are hundreds of thousands of people buying other hybrids every year, so obviously people care about more things than "maximum FE" when buying such cars. For sure, the affordability of the Fit Hybrid plays a big part in making it an absolute hit in Japan despite getting slightly worse FE than the Prius and not even having a "differentiated style".
IMA doesn't make sense as a "status symbol", but it makes plenty of sense in a mature market in terms of valuing fuel economy (like JP, where Honda hybrids represent > 20% of total Honda sales).
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WingZ
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danielgr wrote:
WingZ wrote:
danielgr wrote:
WingZ wrote:
Anyone know if we will get the 1.5l Insight in the states? Seems as though the Europeans just received the 1.3L with updates to improve fuel economy. Be great if we did.
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My guess is that:
- it won't happen with the Li pack, 'cause the Insight is marketed as the "hybrid for everyone" in the US, and using the HCH IMA would add costs and defeat the purpose of having both (the Civic being a "more premium alternative"); in JP the "hybrid for everyone" is the Fit.
- it may happen without the Li pack if Honda can keep mpg similar to the 1.3L version (costwise I don't think there is significant increase between 1.3L and 1.5L).
Summing up, slim chances, but not inexistant imho.
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Darn you don't think maybe they'll try and make it more competitive against the Prius? I mean it is still more hatchback to hatchback vs the HCH. With the improvements mentioned on the 2012 Euro Insight coupled with the 1.5 and maybe a price increase of $2500 on top of the EX with navi price. That would make the Insight a lot more competitive and still priced far the below the Prius with similar options.
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For the Insight 1.5L to make sense in the US Honda has to:
- Be able to manufacture it at similar cost as 1.3L (I believe possible)
- Be able to get similar FE to the current 1.3L version (I believe it possible with proper tuning), could become an "Insight EX" (larger engine with improved response and no FE penalty) vs. an "Insight LX" (smaller engine but improved FE over existing formula).
- Estimate that it'll remain different enough from the 1.5L HCH not to eat into Civic sales (here is where my doubts are).
Again, that's just "my opinion on what is/will be", has nothing to do with what my likes/wishes.
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Ok good points. I don't know when they'll actually let us know what changes are coming to the NA 2012 Insight but I hope they do add a 1.5L. I like the versatility of the hatchback vs the sedan so if they do a 1.5L Insight I'll pick one up.
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Midi_Amp
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danielgr wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
@danielgr I noticed the news since 2009 from http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/09/freed-hybrid-20090908.html Takanobu Ito interview on Nikkei (post it on my personal blog too :) )
@blackstripe77 from technical point of view, IMA is a canned bread, the best invention after bread itself... I'm trying to pull one here, if it's not funny then sorry... I understand the Honda approach where simplicity just works without additional complexity nor cost. However, at the end of the day, it's the result that matters and IMA equipped cars delivers mileage below series parallel hybrids (Toyota HSD). For those who can afford $20K something with a lease, they can definitely afford the Prius and with the car ubiquitous green status, the buyer will justifies the price based on emotional urges alone. I admire and a die hard Honda fan for what they are, but I could no longer convince friends and relatives on the technicality alone... The last time I try to convince somebody is how good Honda brake mean effective pressure... Yup... Went sour as soon I pulled out the calculator.
[...] |
- On the IMA thing: Those making "fuel economy" the only important part of their purchase will inevitably buy the Prius. Yet there are hundreds of thousands of people buying other hybrids every year, so obviously people care about more things than "maximum FE" when buying such cars. For sure, the affordability of the Fit Hybrid plays a big part in making it an absolute hit in Japan despite getting slightly worse FE than the Prius and not even having a "differentiated style".
IMA doesn't make sense as a "status symbol", but it makes plenty of sense in a mature market in terms of valuing fuel economy (like JP, where Honda hybrids represent > 20% of total Honda sales).
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If you bring up the Fit hybrid, then it makes sense that the price gap and cost of ownership favors Honda solution over the Prius. It's just that the Insight with all the humdrum felt flat on the execution... Hey, it's Honda green machine number 1, it should create an impact but rather it just splashed.
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FiSH-Chan
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danielgr wrote:
- On the IMA thing: Those making "fuel economy" the only important part of their purchase will inevitably buy the Prius. Yet there are hundreds of thousands of people buying other hybrids every year, so obviously people care about more things than "maximum FE" when buying such cars. For sure, the affordability of the Fit Hybrid plays a big part in making it an absolute hit in Japan despite getting slightly worse FE than the Prius and not even having a "differentiated style".
IMA doesn't make sense as a "status symbol", but it makes plenty of sense in a mature market in terms of valuing fuel economy (like JP, where Honda hybrids represent > 20% of total Honda sales).
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What I've been noticing lately is that a few years ago (actually about 2 years back) people actually took some time to explain the 'hybrid' they are reviewing is a series hybrid or a parellel hybrid.
Not very long after that -- today - they simply just review "A hybrid is better than B hybrid" without getting too technical on the details.
In other words, it's like comparing a DOHC engine and a SOHC engine, there are things you don't expect a SOHC to acheive compare to a DOHC engine for example..
I think Honda missed out on a few things; speed to implement the IMA across every model (the earthquake no doubt slow this), and dropping the "hybrid" badge (call it a power flywheel). I think they should scale the IMA down a bit too for stop/start/dynastart, or scale it up for more ev mode Prius competitor thing. I'm sure they can do it, if they can achieve the figures they are doing now what can they do with a bigger IMA motor? Or make a smaller, cheaper to produce IMA and put it in every model as a highend version? Imagine buying a brand new Honda and the engine just comes to life just like that without the 'horrible starting noise'. Of course there is the other issues such as cost, etc.. but I'm sure they are able to get around it.
I'm not sure about others but that is one 'feature' that would surely win me to get one, because of all the noises the engine makes, I would really not miss the sound of engine starting at all.
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danielgr
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Midi_Amp wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
@danielgr I noticed the news since 2009 from http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/09/freed-hybrid-20090908.html Takanobu Ito interview on Nikkei (post it on my personal blog too :) )
@blackstripe77 from technical point of view, IMA is a canned bread, the best invention after bread itself... I'm trying to pull one here, if it's not funny then sorry... I understand the Honda approach where simplicity just works without additional complexity nor cost. However, at the end of the day, it's the result that matters and IMA equipped cars delivers mileage below series parallel hybrids (Toyota HSD). For those who can afford $20K something with a lease, they can definitely afford the Prius and with the car ubiquitous green status, the buyer will justifies the price based on emotional urges alone. I admire and a die hard Honda fan for what they are, but I could no longer convince friends and relatives on the technicality alone... The last time I try to convince somebody is how good Honda brake mean effective pressure... Yup... Went sour as soon I pulled out the calculator.
[...] |
- On the IMA thing: Those making "fuel economy" the only important part of their purchase will inevitably buy the Prius. Yet there are hundreds of thousands of people buying other hybrids every year, so obviously people care about more things than "maximum FE" when buying such cars. For sure, the affordability of the Fit Hybrid plays a big part in making it an absolute hit in Japan despite getting slightly worse FE than the Prius and not even having a "differentiated style".
IMA doesn't make sense as a "status symbol", but it makes plenty of sense in a mature market in terms of valuing fuel economy (like JP, where Honda hybrids represent > 20% of total Honda sales).
|
If you bring up the Fit hybrid, then it makes sense that the price gap and cost of ownership favors Honda solution over the Prius. It's just that the Insight with all the humdrum felt flat on the execution... Hey, it's Honda green machine number 1, it should create an impact but rather it just splashed.
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1st) Price is important when buying a car in a mature market. That brings the point of whether the US market for hybrids was mature enough or not when Honda brought the Insight. But beyond that, what was clear from day1 is that, in the US, Insight was never "cheap enough" (in JP sales remained strong until Fit arrival rumours went widespread). If I had lived in the US I would have probably bought a Prius for my mother (provided I could find it on listed prices), but in France the Prius was +5000 Euro and beyond her aspirations. Mind you, my mother was not "thriving to drive a hybrid", and actually doesn't really understand what she drives, she just gets the FE bonus.
2nd) For "early adopters" or "enthusiasts" price is never such a big deal. Those are making most of the Prius sales, and are not going to change their ride for an Insight unless it becomes "the new champion". You can think about it with a "phone paralelism": the i-phone ruled the market until smartphones became mainstream. For a few years people getting an i-phone wouldn't care if it's expensive, nor about any of its shortcommings, they'll buy it and love it for being "the best you can buy" and being able to get it "before anyone else" and "showcase it around with pride". A few years later Smartphone's are not so much of a luxury, and once they become mainstream and sales rocket (the market matures) consumers rise the same concerns on price-quality-variety they've always had when buying a phone.
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danielgr
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danielgr wrote:
blackstripe77 wrote:
MMC Odyssey RB3/4 set to debut on October 6th
http://www.honda.co.jp/ODYSSEY/new/
MMC Insight Hybrid now with 1.5l IMA
http://www.honda.co.jp/INSIGHT/new/
New Freed Hybrid and Freed Spike Hybrid, also with the 1.5l IMA
http://www.honda.co.jp/FREED/new/
Can't wait until the new Odyssey debuts so we can finally place our order! Apparently we were too late for the pre-MMC. Hope all the new chrome trim doesn't make it too blingy, but the LED tails will be a welcome addition.
The new 1.5l in the Insight (and Freed) (from the CR-Z?) should give it some much needed additional power, and hopefully with it, better real-world economy. Those plasticky grilles look a bit awkward in the day when you can see the whole grille though. Not a big fan of the illumination either. Or the blue taillights. I guess some people like others to know they're driving a hybrid. Personally, I'd prefer my hypothetical 1.5l Fit/FitShuttle Hybrid to look like a Fit RS.
I am also excited for the first hybrid 7-seater from Honda! No chance we'll be replacing our small (and inefficient) Stream with the even smaller Freed though, but still looking forward to it. Hopefully we'll see IMA in some larger cars soon, when the next JDM Civic and Accord come around (if they do). Perhaps Daniel will be placing an order for another hybrid soon?
Looks like Honda has really been trying to up their game, and now they're finally back on their feet after the quake.
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Here a few pics that look as promising as I had hoped for.
Freed Spike H becoming a serious contender for next family-car, but still a bit early for us.
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Midi_Amp
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danielgr wrote:
Freed Spike H becoming a serious contender for next family-car, but still a bit early for us.
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Why not just take the 7 seater Freed? I'm not sure you will ever use the cavernous cargo bay of the Spike, even if you does use it, it's better to use a dedicated hauling service. I just moved a top loading 9 Kg washing machine on my Freed with the third row seat folded up, a bit tight, but still have some space left for other things. When not in use, I can still use the third row seat to carry the extended family.
Oh, and finally the Freed Hybrid will have proper captain seat... Right now only the "hallway" side got the hand rest, while the door side is missing. I hope there's an aftermarket hand rest for my generation of Freed.... And one funny thing I noticed... It's a 6 seater now? That third row middle seat doesn't look like it can be sat upon, not that the current model sits 7 comfortably anyway but still the third row can sit 3 (forcefully).
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danielgr
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Midi_Amp wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Freed Spike H becoming a serious contender for next family-car, but still a bit early for us.
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Why not just take the 7 seater Freed? I'm not sure you will ever use the cavernous cargo bay of the Spike, even if you does use it, it's better to use a dedicated hauling service. I just moved a top loading 9 Kg washing machine on my Freed with the third row seat folded up, a bit tight, but still have some space left for other things. When not in use, I can still use the third row seat to carry the extended family.
Oh, and finally the Freed Hybrid will have proper captain seat... Right now only the "hallway" side got the hand rest, while the door side is missing. I hope there's an aftermarket hand rest for my generation of Freed.... And one funny thing I noticed... It's a 6 seater now? That third row middle seat doesn't look like it can be sat upon, not that the current model sits 7 comfortably anyway but still the third row can sit 3 (forcefully).
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- I always need cargo and have a pretty active life (I'm always taking things to many places). On the Spike I can even "camp inside the car".
- I hardly never (or never) need more than seat for 5 (planing 2 kids right now, will never get more than 3). We have 7-seaters in the family (a Toyota Estima Hybrid and a Toyota Voxy), and none are ever used to carry more than 5 unless it's around town (in which case taking a second car is not the end of the world, and many times we are 8 or 9 so ...). Whenever we go for a trip we don't just need room for passengers, but also their luggages. I've never seen a 7-seater able to handle both 7 people and their luggage for more than a weekend trip with no activity. What I want is a car able to carry 5 with all luggage and stuff = Freed Spike :)
PS: Indeed, those 3rd row arm-rests in what looks to be a 6-seater are new for the Freed. Wonder if they had to make the rear-bench a bit narrower to make room for the battery cooling ducts (as in the CR-Z/Fit). Here is current Freed (link)
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Midi_Amp
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danielgr wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Freed Spike H becoming a serious contender for next family-car, but still a bit early for us.
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Why not just take the 7 seater Freed? I'm not sure you will ever use the cavernous cargo bay of the Spike, even if you does use it, it's better to use a dedicated hauling service. I just moved a top loading 9 Kg washing machine on my Freed with the third row seat folded up, a bit tight, but still have some space left for other things. When not in use, I can still use the third row seat to carry the extended family.
Oh, and finally the Freed Hybrid will have proper captain seat... Right now only the "hallway" side got the hand rest, while the door side is missing. I hope there's an aftermarket hand rest for my generation of Freed.... And one funny thing I noticed... It's a 6 seater now? That third row middle seat doesn't look like it can be sat upon, not that the current model sits 7 comfortably anyway but still the third row can sit 3 (forcefully).
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- I always need cargo and have a pretty active life (I'm always taking things to many places). On the Spike I can even "camp inside the car".
- I hardly never (or never) need more than seat for 5 (planing 2 kids right now, will never get more than 3). We have 7-seaters in the family (a Toyota Estima Hybrid and a Toyota Voxy), and none are ever used to carry more than 5 unless it's around town (in which case taking a second car is not the end of the world, and many times we are 8 or 9 so ...). Whenever we go for a trip we don't just need room for passengers, but also their luggages. I've never seen a 7-seater able to handle both 7 people and their luggage for more than a weekend trip with no activity. What I want is a car able to carry 5 with all luggage and stuff = Freed Spike :)
PS: Indeed, those 3rd row arm-rests in what looks to be a 6-seater are new for the Freed. Wonder if they had to make the rear-bench a bit narrower to make room for the battery cooling ducts (as in the CR-Z/Fit). Here is current Freed (link)
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Well, if you got the Estima and Noah already, then the regular Freed is moot. I forgot you have those, I think you mentioned them once or twice on previous posts.
I don't think the Freed H third row seats are narrower, looks almost the same dimension wise. The cooling duct can be placed opposite of the jack kit storage... Or... If the battery replaces the spare tire underneath the third row seat, then cooling duct can be placed where the jack kit went. I do suspect that Honda is artificially limiting the maximum occupant of the car to just 6 so the car won't have to carry "extra potential" of weight (the 7th person) thus increasing mileage across the board.
I maybe wrong, but the other reason is for increase in comfort, but I don't think the inclusion of hand rests will exponentially increase the comfort level.
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danielgr
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Midi_Amp wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Freed Spike H becoming a serious contender for next family-car, but still a bit early for us.
|
Why not just take the 7 seater Freed? I'm not sure you will ever use the cavernous cargo bay of the Spike, even if you does use it, it's better to use a dedicated hauling service. I just moved a top loading 9 Kg washing machine on my Freed with the third row seat folded up, a bit tight, but still have some space left for other things. When not in use, I can still use the third row seat to carry the extended family.
Oh, and finally the Freed Hybrid will have proper captain seat... Right now only the "hallway" side got the hand rest, while the door side is missing. I hope there's an aftermarket hand rest for my generation of Freed.... And one funny thing I noticed... It's a 6 seater now? That third row middle seat doesn't look like it can be sat upon, not that the current model sits 7 comfortably anyway but still the third row can sit 3 (forcefully).
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- I always need cargo and have a pretty active life (I'm always taking things to many places). On the Spike I can even "camp inside the car".
- I hardly never (or never) need more than seat for 5 (planing 2 kids right now, will never get more than 3). We have 7-seaters in the family (a Toyota Estima Hybrid and a Toyota Voxy), and none are ever used to carry more than 5 unless it's around town (in which case taking a second car is not the end of the world, and many times we are 8 or 9 so ...). Whenever we go for a trip we don't just need room for passengers, but also their luggages. I've never seen a 7-seater able to handle both 7 people and their luggage for more than a weekend trip with no activity. What I want is a car able to carry 5 with all luggage and stuff = Freed Spike :)
PS: Indeed, those 3rd row arm-rests in what looks to be a 6-seater are new for the Freed. Wonder if they had to make the rear-bench a bit narrower to make room for the battery cooling ducts (as in the CR-Z/Fit). Here is current Freed (link)
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Well, if you got the Estima and Noah already, then the regular Freed is moot. I forgot you have those, I think you mentioned them once or twice on previous posts.
I don't think the Freed H third row seats are narrower, looks almost the same dimension wise. The cooling duct can be placed opposite of the jack kit storage... Or... If the battery replaces the spare tire underneath the third row seat, then cooling duct can be placed where the jack kit went. I do suspect that Honda is artificially limiting the maximum occupant of the car to just 6 so the car won't have to carry "extra potential" of weight (the 7th person) thus increasing mileage across the board.
I maybe wrong, but the other reason is for increase in comfort, but I don't think the inclusion of hand rests will exponentially increase the comfort level.
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Irony of sorts, Voxy is owned by a "mother+1 child family", and Estima is of my wife's mother, which drives it 90% of time alone... I'm certainly not (hope never will) into the "in case of doubt buy bigger", and do make the effort to buy the car that "fits" my everyday/common needs. If forced to, I can always rent for the "once in a lifetime" occasion I need bigger. Right now, if not for the power-sliding door I don't think I'd consider the Freed, but once you get used to those... they are really convenient when carrying kids/stuff around (specially in JP where all parking is done "side by side").
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WongKN
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I like the way the Freed front doors tilts when it is opened, so that the top part of the door 'falls away' more the further it is opened. Practically all cars have a tapering top half and the doors follows this profile. As a result, when parking side by side in tight spots, the doors don't open wide and we often have to contort our bodies to squeeze out through the small gap. The Freed doors tilts in such a way that we can get out more easily in a more naturally upright position.
Midi-Amp, did you find this feature useful ? Daniel, is this feature of importance to you in your consideration ?
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danielgr
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WongKN wrote:
I like the way the Freed front doors tilts when it is opened, so that the top part of the door 'falls away' more the further it is opened. Practically all cars have a tapering top half and the doors follows this profile. As a result, when parking side by side in tight spots, the doors don't open wide and we often have to contort our bodies to squeeze out through the small gap. The Freed doors tilts in such a way that we can get out more easily in a more naturally upright position.
Midi-Amp, did you find this feature useful ? Daniel, is this feature of importance to you in your consideration ?
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Now, I took my wife down to a Fit coming from a CR-V mainly because of FE, and I know she likes those sliding doors, so if it's offered with a sky-roof, kids start coming and the hybrid delivers on real world FE ... Picture is changing.
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WongKN
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Based on what I remember from my trips to Japan, this tilting door is an extremely useful and IMO, a very intelligent feature over there. And over here too. I actually wish Honda will implement it on ALL their cars and I wish my Jazz/Fit has it.
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Midi_Amp
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danielgr wrote:
WongKN wrote:
I like the way the Freed front doors tilts when it is opened, so that the top part of the door 'falls away' more the further it is opened. Practically all cars have a tapering top half and the doors follows this profile. As a result, when parking side by side in tight spots, the doors don't open wide and we often have to contort our bodies to squeeze out through the small gap. The Freed doors tilts in such a way that we can get out more easily in a more naturally upright position.
Midi-Amp, did you find this feature useful ? Daniel, is this feature of importance to you in your consideration ?
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Now, I took my wife down to a Fit coming from a CR-V mainly because of FE, and I know she likes those sliding doors, so if it's offered with a sky-roof, kids start coming and the hybrid delivers on real world FE ... Picture is changing.
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@WongKN the door tilts? Whoa... Let me check... Back... Nope, I don't think it tilts, or maybe I didn't notice it. If I got into a tight parking space, I usually went out (in style) through the second row sliding doors or just went through the other side of the front doors thanks to the flat floor. I just love the flexibility of the flat floor and the tiny hallway of the car.
@danielgr I understand your sentiment on the Freed, the extra weight combined with the tall structure makes the handling dynamics and fuel efficiency of the car worse than the Fit. I almost lost control when I did a spirited driving once, the steering is a bit too light and the suspension is on the soft side... This is a family car through and through. If the Freed Spike has lower clearance and tighter suspension, by all means, it would be a good replacement for your Fit (well, you can buy aftermarkets anytime anyway).
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WongKN
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The Malaysian Freeds have tilting door. I actually took a couple of photos to show how the door tilts. I will post one up here so you can take a look. I hope/think this feature should be on all Freeds.
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Midi_Amp
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WongKN wrote:
The Malaysian Freeds have tilting door. I actually took a couple of photos to show how the door tilts. I will post one up here so you can take a look. I hope/think this feature should be on all Freeds.
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Please post some photos. Perhaps it's the perspective, but to me it doesn't look like the door tilts, maybe if I look it from above... Well, apparently it will be hard for me to do so.
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